# Explain the Sad Puppies (Science Fiction Controversy) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [December 2, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019 "2020-12-02T16:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/1 "2020-12-02T16:26:55Z")
My understanding of the Sad Puppies controversy has always been that a contingent of conservative science fiction writers began to resent the Hugos going to liberals who wrote from the perspective of women, LGBTQ, people of color, etc and made their best effort to destroy the Hugo Awards Process. Through a complicated series of events, I unexpectedly butted heads on Facebook yesterday with Larry Correia, one of the leaders of this movement. He claimed, emphatically and angrily, that his movement was pro-diversity and that his intent to silence such voices was a made-up lie. He listed a bunch of women and people of color his movement had supported. I realized that I know very little about this subject other than the received wisdom about it from the liberal side. So I am asking people of the Straight Dope to explain to me just what this is all about. I’m hoping to generate a discussion that encompasses multiple perspectives. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/2 "2020-12-02T16:36:04Z")
I think this thread was where I first heard about the Sad Puppies (and Chuck Tingle as well): > [@2016 Hugo Awards: The Sad & Rabid Puppies are back](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-hugo-awards-the-sad-rabid-puppies-are-back/753269/2): > > Yeah, it’s all Rabid Puppies this year. As it was last year, actually. Last year, the Sad Puppies put together a slate of works they thought deserved the award. Their complaint about the Hugos was that they had become a bastion for “political correctness.” Yet when asked to give examples, they could only point to [one story](http://www.apex-magazine.com/if-you-were-a-dinosaur-my-love/) that got a nomination and didn’t win (and couldn’t possibly have won). Any listing of Hugo winners showed there were plenty of stories that they would have loved, but the… ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/3 "2020-12-02T17:01:19Z")
The answer is that the Sad Puppies can’t conceive that other people can genuinely like stories they don’t. They saw stories they disliked winning awards and the only explanation they could come up with was political correctness (as I pointed out, they could only point to one nominated story that fit that characterization; I never saw them talking about any other). What they haven’t understood is that the genre is more diverse than it used to be. There are more women, more people of color, and more non-American writers. For a variety of reasons, these groups have different ideas about what constitutes a good story. If you see what they consider a good story, it all points to traditional hard 1930s SF or fantasy without any politics or non-straight sex. But hard SF was never the only form of SF to win awards and by the 50s writers were putting political content into their work (look at Theodore Sturgeon’s “Mr. Costello, Hero”). There were also plenty of stories in the 50s that portrayed modern sexual issues (Sturgeon’s “The World Well Lost” and Fred Pohl’s “Day Million”). There’s also the obvious fact that if the genre is to prevent being moribund, it needs to keep evolving. The issue with political content is that current content is not what they agree to. I don’t see any of them objecting to the political content in Heinlein. The big issue was, instead of understanding tastes had changed, they argued that the changes were due to “political correctness.” They then used loopholes in the Hugo rules to allow them to block nominate what _they_ thought was good SF. Many of the stories they advocated were from among their own members, and were barely readable.\* Their attempt angered many fans. \*Some, TBH, were certainly deserving. The plan was to add some works that would be unobjectional like a Jim Butcher novel, pointing out that he hadn’t gotten a nomination. But that was mostly a function of the nature of his novels. They were often quite good, but awards in all fields usually go to works that are more than just good and series are at a disadvantage. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/4 "2020-12-02T17:13:48Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The plan was to add some works that would be unobjectional like a Jim Butcher novel, pointing out that he hadn’t gotten a nomination. I read the first of Jim Butcher’s Dresden Files books (though I have been told he is a flaming asshole IRL) and it was good, but… _Hugo_ good? That makes me believe I have a shot. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/5 "2020-12-02T17:32:29Z")
[https://fanlore.org/wiki/Puppygate](https://fanlore.org/wiki/Puppygate) Or to make a long story much, much longer, watch it play out in real-time > **[Sad Puppies – Page 16 – File 770](https://file770.com/tag/sad-puppies/page/16/)** ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/6 "2020-12-02T17:42:26Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > that his movement was pro-diversity It is worth noting that this language has been co-opted by all sorts of corners who would traditionally have been considered the privileged, in order to push against their perceived shrinking space. In other words, “Diversity means western straight white men too!” ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/7 "2020-12-02T17:59:33Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The answer is that the Sad Puppies can’t conceive that other people can genuinely like stories they don’t. They saw stories they disliked winning awards and the only explanation they could come up with was political correctness (as I pointed out, they could only point to one nominated story that fit that characterization; I never saw them talking about any other). I think you’ve hit the nail on the head; these guys seem to have a very narrow view of science fiction literature, and a lot of more contemporary writers don’t fit into it. Then when these contemporary writers are nominated for/win awards for works with non-traditional themes (LGBT, inequity, etc…) they assume that those themes are the REASON the works are nominated/win, and that the awards process has been subverted by some wish to reward these writers for the themes they chose, not for the quality of their writing. But here’s the thing- science fiction is fundamentally about using the science-fictional settings as a sort of reflector of our society. And as such, things like LGBTQ issues, gender issues and racial issues should and HAVE be being addressed in science-fiction for a long time now. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/8 "2020-12-02T18:09:10Z")
> [@bump](#): > > But here’s the thing- science fiction is fundamentally about using the science-fictional settings as a sort of reflector of our society. And as such, things like LGBTQ issues, gender issues and racial issues should and HAVE be being addressed in science-fiction for a long time now Yeah. Eight-time Hugo Award winner Lois McMaster Bujold had an entire novel about a society comprised entirely of men who married other men. And that was in 1986. She also had a book dealing with sex - change surgery. Some people have such a narrow idea about genre. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/9 "2020-12-02T18:14:12Z")
The hilarious thing is that the Puppies created their own award since they weren’t winning Hugos–and now they are losing that one too. > **[Reaction to 2020 Dragon Awards Winners](https://file770.com/reaction-to-2020-dragon-awards-winners/)** > > What was the response to yesterday’s announcement of the 2020 Dragon Awards winners among some of the award’s most ardent supporters? It can be divided between those who ignored any category that w… ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/10 "2020-12-02T18:15:21Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I unexpectedly butted heads on Facebook yesterday with Larry Correia, one of the leaders of this movement. He claimed, emphatically and angrily, that his movement was pro-diversity and that his intent to silence such voices was a made-up lie. I sometimes wonder if “Q” of Qanon fame was an sf fan, because the trolling involved seems to have many points in common, not least the sheer hatred of Others that it involved. Vox Day, the Puppies’ leader, was a longtime troll and spewer of nonsense conspiracy theories on his blog. He ran for President of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America - who give out a separate award, the Nebulas - on a fairly straightforward platform at first. When his history was made public he flamed out spectacularly and was banned from the organization. The Puppies were, IMO, a continuation of that, because the Hugos are open to anyone who pays the fee to join the annual world convention. Just as in political primaries, a small number of dedicated followers can swamp the larger, but unattached, number of normals. I know nothing of Correia as an individual so I will not characterize him in any way. I’ve read enough of Vox Day - I was an active opponent back in the day - to say that he by himself embodied the full basket of deplorability that Hillary Clinton described. The Puppies were no more pro-diversity than Trump has been the best president to blacks except - possibly - for Lincoln. Are there multiple perspectives on this subject? Are there multiple perspectives on Qanon? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/11 "2020-12-02T18:17:22Z")
Given the context, also probably worth noting that the protagonist of that series is an avowed, constantly reinforced, “chauvinist pig.” It’s arguable whether it’s fair to describe the fiction as misogynist, since the narrative takes explicit note of the fact. But if Butcher was one of the choices to combat the wokeness of the awards otherwise, it’s possible that choice may have been influenced by the fact that it would be easy to identify with the power fantasy and the protagonist who is constantly remarking on the physical attributes of the super hot supernatural chicks he is coincidentally surrounded by, irrespective of whether you’re “supposed” to. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/12 "2020-12-02T18:21:36Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Are there multiple perspectives on this subject? Are there multiple perspectives on Qanon? A lot of this is reminding me of GamerGate. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/13 "2020-12-02T18:23:57Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Given the context, also probably worth noting that the protagonist of that series is an avowed, constantly reinforced, “chauvinist pig.” No coincidence, as I have heard similar things about Jim Butcher himself. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/14 "2020-12-02T18:58:58Z")
I believe it was the sad puppies (not the rabid?) who nominated Chuck Tingle for _Space Raptor Butt Invasion_. I didn’t follow the purpose there – maybe to prove that the process had been highjacked by special interests by highjacking it themselves? I recall CT then used the nomination as an opportunity to speak against bigotry. And it did give us _Pounded In The Butt By My Second Hugo Award Nomination_, so I guess that’s a win for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/15 "2020-12-02T19:13:49Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I recall CT then used the nomination as an opportunity to speak against bigotry. And it did give us _Pounded In The Butt By My Second Hugo Award Nomination_ , so I guess that’s a win for everyone. I adore Chuck Tingle. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/16 "2020-12-02T19:17:17Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Are there multiple perspectives on Qanon? At this point, I consider QAnon’s identity and purpose to be pretty well established. The creator of 8chan made a very good case that it’s one of the two guys he sold the site to in order to handle the new influx of users (and would give him homecare for his disabilities), and that their purpose is to replicate what he’d accomplished with 2chan in Japan, i.e. political power by radicalizing the right wing. And, of course, 8chan became big because of Gamergate, when the creator of 4chan cracked down on them using his platform for harassment. Here’s the podcast where Brennan (creator of 4chan) lays out the fact, including the smoking gun that identifies QAnon. I find it hard to debunk (and I trust the research of the people involved.) > **[\#166 Country of Liars | Reply All](https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/llhe5nm)** > > This week, PJ looks into a theory circling the internet about who might be behind QAnon. The investigation takes him back to the beginning of the QAnon scam, and to the message board trolls who started it. BTW, I note that it was @Spice_Weasel who introduced me to this podcast. It’s now how I keep up with phenomena online that I miss, including some racial stuff I missed. Thanks! I don’t know, however, how this might or might not be connected to Sad Puppies. I’m mostly just trying to get out that QAnon’s identity is fairly well known, and that we ought to be able to deal with them. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/17 "2020-12-02T19:19:14Z")
Ooh, I haven’t listened to that one yet. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/18 "2020-12-02T19:47:49Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I don’t know, however, how this might or might not be connected to Sad Puppies. I’m mostly just trying to get out that QAnon’s identity is fairly well known, and that we ought to be able to deal with them. On the other hand, if, the existence of the Q phenomenon stands for anything, it’s that fairly well known facts to the contrary are completely inconsequential to the strength of a cult-like movement. It was quite well-known to _most_ within weeks of the first Q posts that, you know, this wasn’t really somebody highly placed in military intelligence, and that Hillary wasn’t really in Gitmo. Knowing which specific not-James-Bond it probably is now doesn’t change much of the underlying substance, or lack thereof. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/19 "2020-12-02T19:56:52Z")
Heck, Heinlein had transgender characters in two novels in the 1970s and a short story from the 1950s ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/20 "2020-12-02T19:57:05Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > The hilarious thing is that the Puppies created their own award since they weren’t winning Hugos–and now they are losing that one too. I tried to read that, and I’m afraid it had too much insider talk for me to understand. Can anyone give a cheat-sheet summary? Thanks. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=2)