# Explain the Sad Puppies (Science Fiction Controversy) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [December 2, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019 "2020-12-02T16:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/181 "2020-12-09T17:05:07Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > As I interpreted it, @Dark_Sponge didn’t say anything about the contest being rigged, only that he suspected the individual voters of voting for singers that they did not think were the most talented, in the interest of gender balance. Dark Sponge said that a female contestant was given “bonus points” in order to produce the desired outcome of having a woman win. I don’t see how you can say that’s not rigging the contest. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/182 "2020-12-09T17:08:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Dark Sponge said that a female contestant was given “bonus points” in order to produce the desired outcome of having a woman win. I don’t see how you can say that’s not rigging the contest. Here, for reference, is exactly what Dark\_Sponge said: > [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > Last year, in my opinion, a far less talented person won the competition vs the 2nd place finisher. The winner even mentioned something along the lines of “it’s about time a woman won” right before the judges made their decision. I believe the judges were fearful of appearing to discriminate against women so they let the gender of the competitors partially influence their decision. > > These are the “bonus points” I’m talking about. Yes, it’s a silly example but it’s pervasive throughout our culture that winners are not chosen solely based on who is best. I see a significant difference between “they let the gender of the competitors partially influence their decision” and “The contest was rigged.” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/183 "2020-12-09T17:22:37Z")
To be fair, any judge’s statements made on a television talent (or “talent”) show are likely to be heavily influenced by the questions “What makes the best television?”, “What tells the best story?”, “Who can we shamelessly exploit for commercial reasons afterwards?” or (on a personal judge level) “What can I say or do to make sure the producers don’t replace me next season?”. There is no PC agenda per se, but if they can craft a narrative of some kind around a contestant to make them a plucky underdog they’ll do it for ratings. And I’ve seen plenty of awful acts on these shows (from all demographics) praised and promoted based purely on having a good narrative hook. That’s not being “PC”; that’s just showbiz. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/184 "2020-12-09T17:34:03Z")
Excellent point. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/185 "2020-12-09T17:36:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’ve got a pretty good example from Science Fiction of what **darksponge** is talking about: the [2020 Nebula nominees](https://eisenhowerlibrary.org/2020-nebula-nominees/). > > I’ve read all of them–except one that I didn’t finish. > > They include: > -A really interesting clash between two intergalactic societies with some great technology (including ancestor-memory-chips) and lovely cultural grace-notes, in _A Memory Called Empire_. > -A 1920s fantasy drawing on ancient mythological influences and little-known aspects of culture, in _Gods of Jade and Shadow_. > -A modern fantasy about secret societies and alternate universes, in _The Ten Thousand Doors of January_. > -An absolutely bonkers story of interstellar necromancers combined with a locked-room whodunit, in _Gideon the Ninth_. > -A quiet, meditative extrapolation of what would happen to society if mass gatherings were banned in the face of a pandemic (not prescient at all), in _A Song for a New Day_. > > These ranged from okay to great, in my opinion. But then there was: > -Some what-the-shit-is-this space opera bullshit with a Mary Sue protagonist who may not actually say “Die pirate scum!” as he pew-pews the evil space pirates from his plucky little ship, but he might, it’s actually that bad, and I couldn’t through more than three or four pages before I started throwing up in my mouth. _Marque of Caine_, y’all. > > What the hell was that last one doing on the list? My best guess is that the author, as **darksponge** implied sometimes happens, got bonus points for being a White man. They must have wanted some diversity on the list or something, knowing about the howls they’d hear from sad puppies if the list included no White men. > > Otherwise I absolutely cannot account for such awful dreck getting anywhere near the Nebulas. I doubt it. The sad puppies have left SFWA because the organization didn’t share their concerns. Mostly because it’s become far more diverse than it used to be. The list is chosen by the vote of the members. No one has any idea which books will be on the list until the titles are announced. So for all anyone knew when voting, there would have been plenty of representation of space opera/hard SF and white male authors, so there was no need to add any. In a way, you’re doing just what the puppies do: objecting to a work because it doesn’t match your idea of what good science fiction should be and saying it had to do with race/gender etc. In any case, there are still people who like space opera, and Chuck Gannon is a well-liked person in the field (which is often a factor in nominations) and this is part of a very successful series, so probably more members read it than some of the other works (always a big factor with awards). ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/186 "2020-12-09T17:40:38Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > In a way, you’re doing just what the puppies do: objecting to a work because it doesn’t match your idea of what good science fiction should be and saying it had to do with race/gender etc. I think **LHoD’s** post was tongue in cheek. He fully realizes that taste is subjective; he’s just showing how easy (and senseless) it is to argue against a book because of “reasons.” The parallel to the Sad Puppies is intentional. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/187 "2020-12-09T17:58:41Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Bringing it back to the Hugos (etc.), I guess the question is, would the voters have voted the same way they did if the authors had been “masked” and the voters had no way of knowing their gender, ethnicity, nationality, etc.? Except with literature, it’s not just about the writer, it’s about the subject matter, too. As I understand it, the Sad Puppy types aren’t just upset that stories written by women and people of color are willing popular awards, they are upset that stories about women and people of color, and stories that wrangle with issues of social justice, are winning popular awards. They don’t believe that people really want to read that stuff, that people find it fascinating and compelling: they must be promoting it out of a sense of righteousness, not sincere appreciation. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/188 "2020-12-09T18:39:41Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > In any case, there are still people who like space opera, and Chuck Gannon is a well-liked person in the field (which is often a factor in nominations) and this is part of a very successful series, so probably more members read it than some of the other works (always a big factor with awards). The nice-guy factor definitely affects nominations (back in 1980 or so, Niven and Pournelle have their sf-author character die at the beginning of “Inferno” because he’s showing off for the fans to ensure they think of him as a cool guy worth nominating). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/189 "2020-12-09T18:43:35Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > Dark Sponge said that a female contestant was given “bonus points” in order to produce the desired outcome of having a woman win. I don’t see how you can say that’s not rigging the contest. > > Here, for reference, is exactly what Dark\_Sponge said: > > > [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > > > Last year, in my opinion, a far less talented person won the competition vs the 2nd place finisher. The winner even mentioned something along the lines of “it’s about time a woman won” right before the judges made their decision. I believe the judges were fearful of appearing to discriminate against women so they let the gender of the competitors partially influence their decision. > > > > > These are the “bonus points” I’m talking about. Yes, it’s a silly example but it’s pervasive throughout our culture that winners are not chosen solely based on who is best. > > I see a significant difference between “they let the gender of the competitors partially influence their decision” and “The contest was rigged.” It appears we disagree on what constitutes rigging a contest. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/190 "2020-12-09T18:50:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > _Marque of Caine_ , y’all. That is the 5th book in a well loved and best seller series. Sometimes, the Hugo Nom is for the series, if previous books havent been nominated. Look, we all know that a few voters always vote for the book they _think they should like_, if they have no clear preference or havent actually read them all. Happens a lot in the Oscars. However- I doubt if that makes a big difference. The issue with the Sad Puppies, and their bigoted lying full of crap leader- is they they cant understand why their best selling and decent adventure hard SF isnt getting noms and awards. Sure, Correia for example sells a lot of books, and the books are entertaining. But it is just the same shit piled higher and deeper. Sure, lots of readers want more of the same, and that is understandable. But Popular does not equal Best. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/191 "2020-12-09T18:55:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That is the 5th book in a well loved and best seller series. Sometimes, the Hugo Nom is for the series, if previous books havent been nominated. The Whopper is a best-selling sandwich, but if Burger King gets a Michelin star, I’ll make fun of that, too. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/192 "2020-12-09T18:56:27Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > To be fair, any judge’s statements made on a television talent (or “talent”) show are likely to be heavily influenced by the questions “What makes the best television?”, “What tells the best story?”, “Who can we shamelessly exploit for commercial reasons afterwards?” or (on a personal judge level) “What can I say or do to make sure the producers don’t replace me next season? Which is why, after the first couple of seasons- the winners didnt go on to become big stars. American Idol, Wiki: _The winners of the first eighteen seasons, as chosen by viewers, are [Kelly Clarkson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Clarkson), [Ruben Studdard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruben_Studdard), [Fantasia Barrino](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasia_Barrino), [Carrie Underwood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrie_Underwood), [Taylor Hicks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Hicks), [Jordin Sparks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordin_Sparks), [David Cook](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cook_(singer)), [Kris Allen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris_Allen), [Lee DeWyze](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_DeWyze), [Scotty McCreery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotty_McCreery), [Phillip Phillips](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillip_Phillips), [Candice Glover](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candice_Glover), [Caleb Johnson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caleb_Johnson), [Nick Fradiani](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Fradiani), [Trent Harmon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trent_Harmon), [Maddie Poppe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maddie_Poppe), [Laine Hardy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laine_Hardy), and [Just Sam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_Sam) respectively._ Clarkson and Underwood hit it big. The last 12 I havent even heard of. The voters and the judges pick the ones who bring the best ratings- all of whom are of course quite talented. But not the best talented. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/193 "2020-12-09T19:30:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Clarkson and Underwood hit it big. The last 12 I havent even heard of. Phillp Phillips has actually been pretty successful. His song “Home” was everywhere (and apparently is the best selling song in the US by any Idol alum). ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/194 "2020-12-09T23:10:34Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > > > From what I’ve read, they’re very smart and tough and competent. > > > > It is hard to miss that they’re all also extremely hot and all want to fuck the protagonist, though, and that at the end of the day he’s the hero who saves, uh, that day. > > Ah, the Heinlein school of “strong” women. > > > [@Miller](#): > > > > You can skip _Falling Free_ for now. It’s a good novel, but it’s set a few hundred years before the rest of the series > > Falling Free’s not really part of the Vorkosigan series, though she did work it in there later on. But it’s a great book. “It’s an engineering problem” – > > Bujold’s actually a bit too into pairing people neatly off for my tastes – a few of the books seem to be written primarily for that purpose. But even in some of those, there’s often something else she’s working on getting into the back of the readers’ heads while they’re busy reading the love story. Not trying to prolong the Bujold hijack, but I wanted to respond to your last point. A few years ago, my wife and I agreed on a book swap; we’d each read a book the other recommended. Mrs. SMV doesn’t read sci-fi or fantasy; she’s fond of family dynamics, and novels about the inner lives of their protagonists, especially women - things like _The Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants_ and _Divine Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood_. So I gave her _Paladin of Souls_, thinking she’d enjoy Ista’s reclamation of her own agency, sexuality, and worth. (Her pick for me was a Jodi Picoult novel that turned out to be a ghost story about elephants, which I enjoyed more than I expected to.) Overall, Mrs. SMV said she liked _Paladin_ well enough (although not enough to seek out further Bujold stories). Her one complaint, though, that soured her on the story, was the ending: Ista in bed with Ilvan. She doesn’t like the implication of the traditional ending of an epic quest: the marriage of the hero. She also doesn’t like romance stories - I think she finds such culminations unrealistically tidy. As for Bujold’s overall theme in the Vorkosigan Saga, I think it’s a sci-fi take on “What is the measure of a man?” - the intersectionality of biology, technology, and identity. Clones, genetic engineering, uterine replicators, post-humanism - biotech is behind almost all of the conflicts in the series. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/195 "2020-12-09T23:30:54Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > The nice-guy factor definitely affects nominations (back in 1980 or so, Niven and Pournelle have their sf-author character die at the beginning of “Inferno” because he’s showing off for the fans to ensure they think of him as a cool guy worth nominating). Ha! I haven’t read that book in years and this is the first time I’ve seen anyone else reference it. I can’t even remember the title but I can remember who was acting as the tour guide through hell! ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/196 "2020-12-10T00:07:05Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > I think she finds such culminations unrealistically tidy. It’s not so much that Bujold does it once in a while. I like a good love story sometimes, too. It’s more that she does it over and over and over – as if she thinks that it’s not possible to have a good story if somebody doesn’t get paired off; plus which, in some of the Vorkosigan books she seems to have the need to pair off _everybody_, even if some of it has to happen mostly off-stage. > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Clones, genetic engineering, uterine replicators, post-humanism - biotech is behind almost all of the conflicts in the series. “All true wealth is biological.” And to some extent, the weapons, also. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/197 "2020-12-10T00:15:48Z")
Benny! (last name omitted). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/198 "2020-12-10T11:05:57Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I ran across an asshole I don’t care to name who was trying to answer the question of whether or not an Ultramarine could be black. I would expect all Ultramarines to be a deep shade of blue, no? ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/199 "2020-12-10T13:44:23Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I would expect all Ultramarines to be a deep shade of blue, no? 🙂 Are there inframarines, too? (who would be, I guess, yellow maybe?) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/200 "2020-12-10T13:53:04Z")
Naah, that’s [Genetic Infantrymen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_Trooper). Well, not _deep_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=11)