# Explain the Sad Puppies (Science Fiction Controversy) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [December 2, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019 "2020-12-02T16:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/201 "2020-12-10T13:57:10Z")
In the lore, an Ultramarine isn’t actually a super Space Marine. It’s a Space Marine from the planet Ultramar. Seriously. There’s some handwaving about the recruits from Ultramar having a reputation for being badasses, kind of like Space Gurkhas, who epitomize the ideal Space Marine, which is supposedly why that one planet, and only that one planet, is singled out that way. And it’s just a pure coincidence that the term for “inhabitant of this one random planet” can also be parsed as “Super Marine”… ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/202 "2020-12-10T15:04:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I would expect all Ultramarines to be a deep shade of blue, no? Sure. 🙂 In the same way there’s no black or white in the US Army only green. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/203 "2020-12-10T15:20:19Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > There’s some handwaving about the recruits from Ultramar having a reputation for being badasses, kind of like Space Gurkhas, who epitomize the ideal Space Marine, which is supposedly why that one planet, and only that one planet, is singled out that way. And it’s just a pure coincidence that the term for “inhabitant of this one random planet” can also be parsed as “Super Marine”… In universe, the Ultramarines are the chapter that most closely follows the Codex Astartes. The Codex outlines the way each Space Marine chapter is to be organized, tactics and equipment to be used, etc., etc. Many other chapters diverge from it one way or the other, in the case of the Black Templars the divergence is pronounced, but the Ultramarines stick to it pretty closely. And any potential recruit for any Space Marine chapter is going to be a badass. The Iron Fists are known to recruit from the hives of Necromunda. (Goddamn! Why didn’t anyone tell me I was such a nerd?) Anyway, Warhammer was created by a bunch of white middle class British people in the 1980s and diversity wasn’t on anyone’s radar back then. In recent years, Games Workshop has made a concerted effort to add a little diversity into their models and fiction. If you go to their website now and look at the models for Space Marines and Sisters of Battle, you’ll see quite a few miniatures painted with darker skin tones than lily white. Something you didn’t see a whole lot of in 1992. And this upsets some people. The same asshole I mentioned who only grudgingly accepted a black Ultramarine, bitched and moaned about some children’s 40k books because one of the main protagonists was a teenage girl with a high melanin count. This was a fairly popular YouTuber and I can only imagine the damage he’s done to the hobby. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/204 "2020-12-10T16:14:54Z")
The irony is that, canonically, _all_ Space Marines have a little Black in them… I mean, it’s not called the Caucasian Carapace… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/205 "2020-12-10T18:48:22Z")
The thing I like about 40K is that it operates at a large enough scale that the planet could plausibly have been named Ultramar for the specific purpose of creating a chapter of space marines named Ultramarines. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/206 "2020-12-10T18:58:11Z")
It’s a backronym! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/207 "2020-12-10T19:01:01Z")
Guys, can we get back to the OP, please? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/208 "2020-12-10T19:04:28Z")
Seems to me like the OP has been pretty well covered. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/209 "2020-12-10T19:10:28Z")
Sure, Warhammer and Bujold might be good topics for separate threads. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/210 "2020-12-10T19:12:46Z")
Is there anything you’d like to bring up regarding the Sad Puppies? And yes if I had anything else to discuss about Warhammer I’d start a new thread 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/211 "2020-12-10T19:13:07Z")
**Modhat** : Please avoid Jr. Modding. This is The Café and the question has been answered. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/212 "2020-12-10T19:43:35Z")
I’m trying to imagine Bujold writing a story in the Warhammer universe. Could she handle ironically grimdark? Would it be awesome anyway? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/213 "2020-12-10T19:47:18Z")
Well, since the train has left the tracks anyway, I just want to state that I wont have anything to do with Warhammer due to Games Workshops unscrupulous and unethical business practices. Not to mention they screw over their players on a regular basis by changing the rules to make good troops bad, and thus sell more figures. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/214 "2020-12-10T19:58:30Z")
Man, I would love to see Miles Vorkosigan take on the Galactic Empire. They wouldn’t stand a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/215 "2020-12-10T20:17:46Z")
Miles for strategy, Harrington for tactics, Ivan for logistics, and the Doctor for the peace treaty afterward… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/216 "2020-12-10T20:19:22Z")
To be fair to the Imperium, most of their enemies aren’t likely to come by the negotiation table anyhow. But if Humanity got its head out of its ass and learned to work with the Eldar and the Tau, that would be a big step forward. ---
**Author:** ![Enjoy\_Slurm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enjoy_slurm/32/3937_2.png) [@Enjoy\_Slurm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enjoy_Slurm)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/218 "2020-12-11T17:39:54Z")
Did someone beat you at Warhammer? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/219 "2020-12-11T19:42:28Z")
> **[Games Workshop is Being Sued For $62.5M - Spikey Bits Warhammer 40k, Fantasy...](https://spikeybits.com/2017/08/games-workshop-is-being-sued-for-62-5m.html)** > > The latest chapter in the house of Games Workshops’ legal troubles is here, as they are being sued for $62.5 million dollars amid 6 criminal complaints. Game store owner, and legal counsel David Moore has filed a criminal complaint in the US Federal... _The latest chapter in the house of Games Workshops’ legal troubles is here, as they are being sued for $62.5 million dollars amid 6 criminal complaints._ _Game store owner, and legal counsel David Moore has filed a criminal complaint in the US Federal Court of Southern Florida alleging six criminal violations of US law and is seeking $62.5 million in equitable relief from Games Workshop._ _Moore alleges violations of the U.S. Law and RICO under 18 & 15 U.S. CODE, including but not limited to **Fraud, Price Fixing, Tortious Interference, Breach of Contract, Unjust Enrichment, Restraint of Trade, Conspiracy and Antitrust Violations.** _ > **[r/HobbyDrama - \[Miniature Wargaming\] That time Games Workshop screwed over...](https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/cqao2l/miniature_wargaming_that_time_games_workshop/)** > > 1,093 votes and 328 comments so far on Reddit > **[The Iron Fist: How Games Workshop Put A Stranglehold On The Australian Market](https://www.kotaku.com.au/2013/04/the-iron-fist-how-games-workshop-intends-to-monopolise-the-online-sale-of-products/)** > > Imagine the scenario: you are a large scale distributor of a product. For years you have been selling these products... ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/220 "2020-12-11T19:45:24Z")
I am sorry that you will never know the majesty of burning down the world as Grom the Paunch in Total War: Warhammer ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/221 "2020-12-11T19:53:26Z")
Jeez. And to think the only reason I didn’t get into Warhammer is because it’s so dammed expensive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=12)