# Explain the Sad Puppies (Science Fiction Controversy) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [December 2, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019 "2020-12-02T16:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/222 "2020-12-12T02:17:05Z")
Did anyone read the complaint in that lawsuit from the first link? You don’t need legal training to tell the plaintiff was a crack-pot. And, indeed, [it was swiftly dismissed.](https://spikeybits.com/2017/10/62-5m-lawsuit-against-gw-has-been-dismissed.html) The other two links have some valid complaints, the third particularly, but it’s pretty small potatoes by the standards of late-stage capitalism. I don’t blame anyone (particularly in Australia) for not wanting to buy from GW because of them, but they’re not exactly using child labor to make iPhones. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/223 "2020-12-12T04:31:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Did anyone read the complaint in that lawsuit from the first link? You don’t need legal training to tell the plaintiff was a crack-pot. And, indeed, [it was swiftly dismissed.](https://spikeybits.com/2017/10/62-5m-lawsuit-against-gw-has-been-dismissed.html) I was wondering what ground the plaintiff had to sue for fraud over GW stealing ideas in the 80s (WHAT?! Warhammer, not original? I am SHOCKED!) but figured it wasn’t worth delving into ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/224 "2020-12-12T04:35:34Z")
Yes, but those were only the first three I could find in a few minutes of googling. GW is well known in the business for being unethical and unscrupulous. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/225 "2020-12-12T20:11:01Z")
> **[Trademark Bully Thwarted: Spots the Space Marine Back Online](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/02/trademark-bully-thwarted-spots-space-marine-back-online#:~:text=Last%20month%2C%20a%20UK%20game,space%20marine%E2%80%9D%20in%20connection%20with)** > > Score one for the space marines.  Last month, a UK game developer, Games Workshop, complained to Amazon.com that an ebook, Spots the Space Marine, infringed its trademarks in the term “space marine.”  Turns out Games Workshop sells a... Games workshop is suing SF writers who use the term “Space Marines” even tho that term predates the companies existance. _As many folks pointed out, “space marine” [dates back to at least the 1930s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_marine), appearing in a variety of science fiction including works by Robert Heinlein. It is a science fiction icon. So the notion that any single entity, much less a gaming company, could have broad rights in the “space marine” is outrageous._ ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/226 "2020-12-13T16:31:41Z")
You’ve got a verb tense problem there. That article is seven years old. The lawsuit is long dead. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/227 "2020-12-13T18:57:10Z")
They continue to sue over that issue, afaik. But it shows the kind of business they are, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Enjoy\_Slurm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enjoy_slurm/32/3937_2.png) [@Enjoy\_Slurm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enjoy_Slurm)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2020, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/228 "2020-12-13T21:39:51Z")
No one is forcing you to shop there. Just go lose at Warhammer somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/229 "2020-12-14T17:56:57Z")
I have never played the game. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/230 "2020-12-14T18:39:59Z")
Neither have I, but the way they’ve handled the Fantasy and 40k licenses is masterful - I must be actively playing a half dozen Warhammer games this year. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/231 "2020-12-15T01:49:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > -An absolutely bonkers story of interstellar necromancers combined with a locked-room whodunit, in _Gideon the Ninth_ . I have to say, I went and grabbed this book from the library on the strength of this one sentence, and I was not disappointed. I know she’s done some writing before, but it’s amazing that it’s her first book. The wisecracks and interactions, and the expansion on a mythological structure, reminded me somewhat of Roger Zelazny…good stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/232 "2020-12-22T00:55:19Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > My understanding of the Sad Puppies controversy has always been that a contingent of conservative science fiction writers began to resent the Hugos going to liberals who wrote from the perspective of women, LGBTQ, people of color, etc and made their best effort to destroy the Hugo Awards Process. The alternative view was that the Hugo Awards Process was destroying the larger market for Science Fiction, contrary to its original aim. And needed to be rescued from minority capture. Apart from the politics, it’s an interesting question in marketing. Is there a real decline in SF readership? Is there a relative decline in SF readership? If so can it be fixed by different marketing? Are the awards promoting a minority interest, and if so, is that in conflict with a majority target? I didn’t have any opinion on the substantive issues, so I never formed an opinion on the Sad Puppies, but their hankering for the good old days was centered on a hankering for a large and wide SF readership. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/233 "2020-12-22T01:27:55Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > I have to say, I went and grabbed this book from the library on the strength of this one sentence, and I was not disappointed. I know she’s done some writing before, but it’s amazing that it’s her first book. The wisecracks and interactions, and the expansion on a mythological structure, reminded me somewhat of Roger Zelazny…good stuff. Glad you liked it! I’m reading the sequel now, and having a harder time getting into it, but that may be because I just got a great computer game and it’s distracting me :). > [@Melbourne](#): > > I didn’t have any opinion on the substantive issues, so I never formed an opinion on the Sad Puppies, but their hankering for the good old days was centered on a hankering for a large and wide SF readership. Well…that’s debatable. Certainly that matches with their claims. But SF stories (if not books) are more popular than ever now, through movies and games; and I’ve seen no evidence that SF books are less read today _as a subsection of all reading_. Instead, I think they believe that everyone is, like them, a kind of racist white dude, and that just as they don’t like reading about protagonists who aren’t white dudes, neither does anyone else. For my money, recent winners like NK Jemisin’s three-year sweep are incredibly exciting and are rejuvenating the field. The Sad Puppies are the equivalent of someone who hated _The Sopranos_ and _The Good Place_ and wants to return TV to the golden era of _Dragnet_ and _I Love Lucy_. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/234 "2020-12-22T01:31:25Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > their hankering for the good old days was centered on a hankering for a large and wide SF readership. Their hankering was for Nutty Nuggets. > **[SAD PUPPIES 3: The unraveling of an unreliable field](https://bradrtorgersen.blog/2015/02/04/sad-puppies-3-the-unraveling-of-an-unreliable-field/)** > > One thing that’s become apparent during this third go-around of SAD PUPPIES, are the many and divided opinions on why the Hugo awards are broken. Much of this conversation is simply a continu… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/235 "2020-12-22T02:47:39Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Their hankering was for Nutty Nuggets. Their hankering wasn’t just for Nutty Nuggets: it was for Nutty Nuggets _to win Michelin Stars_. Look, there are still people writing tired-ass cliche fantasy and genre-bound space opera. Those things haven’t gone away. And I read them sometimes too, because they can be fun. But I, and a lot of fans, have decided that we like stuff that switches things up. And even that’s not new. Those things that were classics in their day–Dune, Lord of the Rings, Neuromancer–were classics because they were doing something new. They were decidedly NOT the Nutty Nuggets of their day. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/236 "2020-12-22T03:06:51Z")
That dude is complaining all about how modern SF is all about transgender issues or colonialism or capitalism or war or environmentalism or whatever, unlike, what, past Hugo winners like: 1970: _The Left Hand of Darkness_ 1966: _Dune_ 1975: _The Dispossessed_ 1986: _Ender’s Game_ (and yeah, I know Card is a hot fucking mess, but this novel works well as a rebuttal of _Starship Troopers_) 1994: _Green Mars_ He’s vastly misunderstanding the history of science fiction. True, there’s always been the [fascist leanings](https://locusmag.com/2019/11/cory-doctorow-jeannette-ng-was-right-john-w-campbell-was-a-fascist/) of people like Heinlein and Campbell and Burroughs and Lovecraft; but they’ve been working alongside your Le Guins and Delaneys and Robinsons all along. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/237 "2020-12-22T03:11:30Z")
I know about Lovecrafts racism, but fascism? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/238 "2020-12-22T05:02:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Their hankering wasn’t just for Nutty Nuggets: it was for Nutty Nuggets _to win Michelin Stars_ . And, going by that article, for Nutty Nuggets to be the only thing in the cereal aisle. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/239 "2020-12-22T05:10:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I know about Lovecrafts racism, but fascism? According to Wikipedia, Lovecraft supported FDR, had strong socialist leanings and didn’t think the New Deal went far enough, and spoke out against fascism. I think this thread might be the first time I’ve heard anyone claim he had fascist leanings. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/240 "2020-12-22T06:14:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > True, there’s always been the [fascist leanings](https://locusmag.com/2019/11/cory-doctorow-jeannette-ng-was-right-john-w-campbell-was-a-fascist/) of people like Heinlein and Campbell and Burroughs and Lovecraft; I know you can get a fascist bent from Starship Troopers, but that was it’s entirely made up milieu. Sixth Column was pretty racist sure, but that is one book out of dozens, and that is really Campbell, RAH hated that book. And that article doesnt in any way call RAH or Burroughs or Lovecraft fascist, in fact that last two arent even mentioned. Now those last two were written by men of their time in a racist time. You have to take them with that in mind. Yeah, there’s too much racism in Lovecraft, but he aint no fascist. I cant really defend Campbell as a racist, sorry to say. But you got only two people calling Campbell a fascist- they are using that word to stir up controversy - which we call here 'trolling". **Yes, Ng and Cory were trolling**. Campbell was weird, outre and quite possibly a racist. He pushed RAH into writing a really bad racist book. But Campbell loved controversy, he’d say things in his editorial just to stir people up… yep, Campbell was indeed a **troll.** _Maybe_ a racist. Fascist? 🤔 or did he just say those things to be controversial? But **racist** does not= **fascist.** Fascist are indeed racists, but not all racists are fascists. Thinking they are is a really bad error in elementary logic. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/241 "2020-12-22T06:27:45Z")
Here is the counter article: > **[Science Fiction Purges its Problematic Past](https://quillette.com/2019/11/05/science-fiction-purges-its-problematic-past/)** > > Sydney. London. Toronto. _Arguments were made that Campbell might not be appropriate to represent contemporary writers, but no one addressed whether we should want a community where we call each other “fascist,” or why it was reasonable to treat being male and white (or, oddly, exalting in industry) as deplorable._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=13)