# Explain the Sad Puppies (Science Fiction Controversy) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [December 2, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019 "2020-12-02T16:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/41 "2020-12-03T02:31:28Z")
What are these “bonus points”? What does that even mean? People like the things they like, and they vote for the things they like to win awards. What else is there? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/42 "2020-12-03T02:40:48Z")
I was at MidAmericon (WorldCon 75) in Kansas City, and they were nothing but a sad joke there. For example, the nominations for **Best Dramatic Presentation (Short Form)** were: - _ **Doctor Who** _ **: “Heaven Sent”** written by Steven Moffat, directed by Rachel Talalay (BBC Television) - _ **Grimm** _ **: “Headache”** written by Jim Kouf and David Greenwalt, directed by Jim Kouf (Universal Television; GK Productions; Hazy Mills Productions; Open 4 Business Productions; NBCUniversal Television Distribution) - _ **Jessica Jones** _ **: “AKA Smile”** written by Scott Reynolds, Melissa Rosenberg, and Jamie King, directed by Michael Rymer (Marvel Television; ABC Studios; Tall Girls Productions; Netflix) - _ **My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic** _ **: “The Cutie Map” Parts 1 and 2** written by Scott Sonneborn, M.A. Larson, and Meghan McCarthy, directed by Jayson Thiessen and Jim Miller (DHX Media/Vancouver; Hasbro Studios) - _ **Supernatural** _ **: “Just My Imagination”** written by Jenny Klein, directed by Richard Speight Jr. (Kripke Enterprises; Wonderland Sound and Vision; Warner Bros. Television) Try to guess which “dramatic” presentation was submitted by and pushed by the Sad Puppies? 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/43 "2020-12-03T02:49:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Try to guess which “dramatic” presentation was submitted by and pushed by the Sad Puppies? As a watcher of both MLP and SPN, there was nothing at all wrong with either of those Puppy nominations. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/44 "2020-12-03T02:51:18Z")
I rather liked both shows, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/45 "2020-12-03T03:01:19Z")
My son is a Bronie, and even he couldn’t understand what that MLP episode was doing in that particular category, except as a sad joke. Well, at least it wasn’t that self-published tripe that they pushed for Best Short Story, _Space Raptor Butt Invasion_ by “Chuck Tingle”. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/46 "2020-12-03T03:17:09Z")
I’ll admit I’ve never cracked open a Chuck Tingle book, but I know people who have, and I’m told he’s a brilliant satirist. Plus, when he was nominated, he used his nomination as a platform to bring attention to authors who are women and people of color, and will forever have my respect. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/47 "2020-12-03T03:17:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Well, at least it wasn’t that self-published tripe that they pushed for Best Short Story, _Space Raptor Butt Invasion_ by “Chuck Tingle”. You did read the first 15 posts in this thread, didn’t ya? 🤪 Now I am curious about _Pounded In The Butt By My Second Hugo Award Nomination_, damn you all… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/48 "2020-12-03T03:21:58Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Plus, when he was nominated, he used his nomination as a platform to bring attention to authors who are women and people of color, and will forever have my respect. I do admire him for that, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that the nomination was designed to disrupt. ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/49 "2020-12-03T04:08:34Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Vox Day, the Puppies’ leader, was a longtime troll and spewer of nonsense conspiracy theories on his blog. Vox Day. I have never read any of his books so I can’t vouch for their quality. I do browse his blog occasionally. He is a big proponent of the Alt-Right, the Alpha-Beta-Gamma male hierarchy theory and of High IQ/IQ racial disparities. Did you know that **he** has High IQ? If you don’t I sure he will remind you. He comes across as one of the most arrogant self-deluded pseudo-intellectuals I have ever come across/ As anyone here actually read his books? Are they any good? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/50 "2020-12-03T04:19:47Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The story that every one of the pointed out as being Everything That Is Wrong with SF was something called, ["If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love](https://apex-magazine.com/if-you-were-a-dinosaur-my-love/)." Now there are legitimate arguments that can be made against the story (is there any SF/fantastic element?, for instance), but the argument was that it was nothing but an excuse for political correctness run wild. (One amusing thing is that the gender of the narrator and the love is never specified, so the event could have easily have happened to two traditional opposite sex characters). It’s mostly a condemnation of bigotry and violence in all forms. That story is beautiful–folks who haven’t read it, click through! When Sad Puppies were active I remember one of their leaders being like, “I can knock off a similar story in an afternoon and it’ll be way better!” and then posted a link to the unreadable purple prose they’d tossed off. Their smug cynicism, combined with their appalling writing, was just perfect. Correia might say the movement was about diversity. He says all sorts of stupid, dishonest shit, and I see no reason to take him any more seriously than the president. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/51 "2020-12-03T04:26:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Correia might say the movement was about diversity. He says all sorts of stupid, dishonest shit, and I see no reason to take him any more seriously than the president. To clarify, he didn’t say the movement was about diversity, he claimed it wasn’t anti-diversity, and that their slate was more diverse than the nominees picked by those pathetic liberals. Something to that effect. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/52 "2020-12-03T04:36:04Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Went from flaming liberal to crypto-fascist. Started out as a supporter of Social Credit: > **[Social credit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_credit)** > > Social credit is a distributive philosophy of political economy developed by C. H. Douglas. Douglas attributed economic downturns to discrepancies between the cost of goods and the compensation of the workers who made them. To combat what he saw as a chronic deficiency of purchasing power in the economy, Douglas prescribed government intervention in the form of the issuance of debt-free money directly to consumers or producers (if they sold their product below cost to consumers) in order to com... ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/53 "2020-12-03T04:43:08Z")
Another MidAmericon took place in Kansas City in 1976. Heinlein was the Guest of Honor. Heinlein never got over WWII. For him, the war showed that Americans faced implacable evil that had to be forced down. Doing so meant giving up everything in one’s life except the war effort and following the government’s lead to the letter, with no disparagement or even neutrality allowed. He disapproved even of the standard grousing and joking that was near universal in the services. If you know anything of the Vietnam era, you know that large segments of the young utterly reversed approval of the government’s war efforts for vocal opposition. It’s vital to remember that the last helicopter out of Saigon was in 1975. We all were still living through that trauma and Nixon’s resignation. A presidential election was looming. The sf world had been badly split by the Vietnam War. There was, as now, an extremely liberal soft science side and an extremely conservative hard science side. Each had signed their names to advertisements either backing or opposing the war, an act that came close to splitting the community. The majority of the attendees at MidAmericon were young. Yet Heinlein was revered. He traveled around the hotel with the equivalent of an armed guard, the Dorsai Irregulars, a group named after Gordon Dickson’s soldiers who acted as security for conventions. They sealed him off from the rabble. I’m sure he needed their protection, just as celebrities today do, but it raised some eyebrows. His guest of honor speech, normally the highlight of a convention, started well. He didn’t read off notes but ad-libbed on his boyhood in Kansas City, and talked about his wife, and prophesized atomic war. The words, read today, don’t seem anything provocative. Reading between the lines (the speech was transcribed and printed later), he did exactly what anyone today would expect: praise the government, the space race, and everything Johnson and Nixon had done to save the world from the evil commies. > The most ridiculous statement I have ever heard is one that was attached to a splinter political party: ‘Peace and Freedom.’ You can have peace, or you can have freedom, but you don’t get both at once. Saying that to a group of mostly leftist antiwar longhairs who had spent their last decade screaming for peace didn’t sit well. At all. There were boos. There was, afterwards, fury. It was unpleasant, and even surreal. Talk about When Worlds Collide. Let me emphasize that these are my memories, impressions, and opinions. I did a quick check to see how others remembered it. Wikipedia says neutrality that the speech was “generally well received.” [Gary Farber](https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/7911729.html?thread=97448753), contrarily, backs me up by stating “By the 1970s, Robert A. Heinlein was being actively booed by a major chunk of his audience during his GOH speech at MidAmericon in 1976.” For full frontal irony, the Hugo Award for Best Novel went to Joe Haldeman’s anti-Vietnam tome _The Forever War_. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/54 "2020-12-03T05:37:24Z")
Wow, thanks for that informative post and added historical context. Sounds like Heinlein is more complicated than I gave him credit for. I just cracked open one of his books, saw how women were portrayed, and slammed it shut. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/55 "2020-12-03T11:03:39Z")
You’re not wrong. And its pervasiveness makes some of his work almost unreadable, IMO. It’s kind of like Star Trek (TOS) in that way. Strong streaks of mid-century progressiveness run through it, along side self-unaware extreme sexism and chauvinism. It can make for a rather bizarre image of the future. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/56 "2020-12-03T12:09:40Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > Try to guess which “dramatic” presentation was submitted by and pushed by the Sad Puppies? > > As a watcher of both MLP and SPN, there was nothing at all wrong with either of those Puppy nominations. The Puppies had little influence on the dramatic Hugos, which had more people nominating and voting. It was the short fiction and fan categories where they added nominees. There are fewer people nominating works, so a concerted effort can get things on the ballot. This was done a few years before when two co-authors got their book on the ballot by buying a bunch of memberships (it was removed before the vote). But a much higher percentage of attendees vote for the dramatic Hugos. For many, they are their only votes because they’re unfamiliar with short stories. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/57 "2020-12-03T17:51:21Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Wow, thanks for that informative post and added historical context. Sounds like Heinlein is more complicated than I gave him credit for. I just cracked open one of his books, saw how women were portrayed, and slammed it shut. Heinlein heavily based the women in his books on his wives, well, mostly on his second, Leslyn, and the third, Virginia. As you might expect, they were not typical homemakers of the mid-century. Both were extremely intelligent and Ginny had a strong scientific background. Those women appeared frequently in his books. Heinlein and Leslyn also were nudists and had an open marriage, and those women also appeared frequently in those books. While those characteristics are not incompatible, the two sets of women rarely overlapped in his fiction. (At least through the 70s when I stopped being able to read him.) What that means is hard to assess. Heinlein always said he wrote to provoke and make people think, not necessarily to reveal his beliefs. Yet when certain structures appear in book after book any normal reader will ascribe those structures to core attitudes. You might want to read [this page](https://polyinthemedia.blogspot.com/2010/08/polyamory-robert-heinlein-and-his-new.html), which contains a variety of opinions and plenty of links, for a better understanding of his attitudes than I can give. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/58 "2020-12-03T18:16:00Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > It is worth noting that this language has been co-opted by all sorts of corners who would traditionally have been considered the privileged, in order to push against their perceived shrinking space. In other words, “Diversity means western straight white men too!” Being diverse means you’re including many types of people to participate. So, yes, diversity means western straight white men too. It just doesn’t mean western straight white men to the exclusion of others. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/59 "2020-12-03T18:27:27Z")
I have exchanged a couple PMs with Jim, and been in some chats with him, and he seems quite nice and willing to reach out to his fans. Not a hint of “flaming asshole”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/60 "2020-12-03T18:33:13Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I know nothing of Correia as an individual so I will not characterize him in any way. I I follow him on FB. He is the very worst kind of MAGA hat wearing, hate spreading, covid denying, homophobic, propaganda spreading, flaming asshole. He, of course, is spreading every trump weird conspiracy theory about the stolen election. He posted a picture of Joe kissing his granddaughter at her parents funeral (Joe’s son) and used it to show that Biden was a pedophile. There is possibly no worse asshole in SF. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=4)