# Explain the Sad Puppies (Science Fiction Controversy) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [December 2, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019 "2020-12-02T16:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/61 "2020-12-03T18:35:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I follow him on FB. Sincere, non-rhetorical question: If he’s such an asshole, why do you follow him on FB? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/62 "2020-12-03T18:36:30Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Being diverse means you’re including many types of people to participate. So, yes, diversity means western straight white men too. It just doesn’t mean western straight white men to the exclusion of others. Science fiction is so much more diverse these days–but straight white men are still fully represented, no danger of that. I read lots of new science fiction/fantasy, and out of curiosity am looking at my Goodreads list for books written in the last ~5 years. AFAICT, the authors of the last ten qualifying books I read are: -White man (Seth Dickinson) -White woman (Naomi Novik) -White man (Phillip Pullman) -Latino man (Simon Jimenez) -Latino man (Carlos Hernandez) -Latino man , trans (Aiden Thomas) -White woman (T. Kingfisher) -White man (Jim Butcher) -Black woman (Tomi Adeyemi) -White man (I think: Scott Reintgen) This isn’t representative, of course, but as a snapshot, even for a SJW who tries to read a variety of authors, nearly half of who I’m reading is a white guy. And that’s excluding older stuff that I read, like Tolkien and Michael Ende and the like. Just a bit more evidence that Correia’s complaints are silly. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/63 "2020-12-03T18:41:19Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The story that every one of the pointed out as being Everything That Is Wrong with SF was something called, ["If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love](https://apex-magazine.com/if-you-were-a-dinosaur-my-love/)." Now there are legitimate arguments that can be made against the story (is there any SF/fantastic element?, for instance), but the argument was that it was nothing but an excuse for political correctness run wild. That was beautiful. But, yes, I dont think it is really SF or fantasy. That is a fair point. It is a love poem in prose. Wrong genre. But lovely. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/64 "2020-12-03T18:49:07Z")
So I can report his posts to FB. Not all of them, of course, just the fake news and racist ones. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/65 "2020-12-03T18:51:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That was beautiful. But, yes, I dont think it is really SF or fantasy. That is a fair point. It is a love poem in prose. Wrong genre. But lovely. It’s not in the firm center of the genre, but it imagines someone being a zookeeper for a dinosaur, scientists reviving dinosaurs with genetic engineering, the speaker turning into a literal flower, a science-fictional world, a world of magic where anything is possible, and so on. It’s definitely a piece that’s familiar with, and depends on, the tropes of speculative genre fiction. I’m all for including works like this in a big genre tent. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/66 "2020-12-03T19:01:49Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Let me give an example of how the Sad Puppies just don’t get the changing genre. I think this is the key factor. I am an old white guy. The science fiction written today is a lot different than the science fiction I grew up reading. I don’t even recognize the names of the authors being nominated. Personally, I can accept this. There’s still plenty of old-fashioned science fiction that I can read and enjoy. But some people can’t accept that they’re no longer the center of the universe. They want to go back to the way things used to be. This is just nostalgia turned toxic. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/67 "2020-12-03T19:18:35Z")
Sure, but the same people that love that and think it is SF, attack Jim Butcher because his main protagonist is a old fashioned chivalrous kinda guy. No where does Jim say that is his personal views, and in fact in his other stuff the main character isnt like that at all. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/68 "2020-12-03T19:23:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Science fiction is so much more diverse these days–but straight white men are still fully represented, no danger of that. I wasn’t worried. I do something worry that people hear diverse and automatically think it only applies to minorities or women. I read through about 1/2 of one of Larry’s books and found it somewhat enjoyable in the same way I enjoy Taco Bell. It’s not what I’d call good but I can appreciate it for what it is. I stopped reading when the whole Sad Puppies came to the forefront. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/69 "2020-12-03T19:23:28Z")
That’s actually a fairly representative list in terms of the national population and race. Maybe a little bit male-centric overall, but with a sample set of 10, that’s reasonably close. I don’t know about you guys, but I rarely know the race of the person writing the books I read, since I get them on the Kindle. Unless I look them up, it just doesn’t come up. I can usually tell gender from their names, but that’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/70 "2020-12-03T19:30:50Z")
Yeah, it’s about a person dealing with a crisis by uses deliberately science-fictional imagery. Rather like Spider Robinson’s “The Time Traveler” (from the early 1970s). Note that “If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love” didn’t win a Hugo award (it was nominated but did not win). Now a story similarly told (“The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas”) did win a Hugo - but that was back in the Good Old Days, wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/71 "2020-12-03T19:34:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, but the same people that love that and think it is SF, attack Jim Butcher because his main protagonist is a old fashioned chivalrous kinda guy. Cite? In this very thread we have someone who “love(s) that and think(s) it is SF” who also reads Jim Butcher. Personally, I think it counts as SF; what’s more questionable is whether it counts as a story. It’s not a traditional narrative; so anyone who’s looking for a traditional narrative-type work of fiction is going to be unsatisfied. But there’s nothing “wrong” with it for what it is. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/72 "2020-12-03T19:36:08Z")
Not in this thread, but in the outside world, Butcher is given a hard time for this. Do you need a cite for that? > **[When Good Books Have Bad Protagonists: The Casual Misogyny of "Storm Front" —...](https://www.swordandboard.gg/blog/2019/11/2/when-good-books-have-bad-protagonists-the-casual-misogyny-of-storm-front)** > > I want to preface this post by saying I have very much enjoyed Storm Front by Jim Butcher. So much so that I immediately moved on to the next book in the series. The world created by Butcher is enticing, dark, mysterious and dangerous. The magic is... ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/73 "2020-12-03T19:38:54Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I wasn’t worried. I do something worry that people hear diverse and automatically think it only applies to minorities or women. I read through about 1/2 of one of Larry’s books and found it somewhat enjoyable in the same way I enjoy Taco Bell. It’s not what I’d call good but I can appreciate it for what it is. I stopped reading when the whole Sad Puppies came to the forefront. Yeah–I didn’t mean to sound like I was disagreeing with you or thought you were worried, I was just riffing off what you said. > [@bump](#): > > That’s actually a fairly representative list in terms of the national population and race. Maybe a little bit male-centric overall, but with a sample set of 10, that’s reasonably close. > > I don’t know about you guys, but I rarely know the race of the person writing the books I read, since I get them on the Kindle. Unless I look them up, it just doesn’t come up. I can usually tell gender from their names, but that’s about it. Well, you can’t always tell, but often, not always, the protagonists’ cultural/racial/ethnic backgrounds reflect the author’s. Adding some info to my list. -White man (Seth Dickinson): protagonist is a dark-skinned lesbian woman, so, nope. -White woman (Naomi Novik): protagonist is a half-Welsh, half-Indian girl, so not really. -White man (Phillip Pullman): protagonist is a white boy, so yep. -Latino man (Simon Jimenez): Multiple protagonists in a far-flung future, so kind of immaterial. -Latino man (Carlos Hernandez): Short stories, but many protagonists are Cubano, so yep. -Latino man , trans (Aiden Thomas): Protagonist is a trans Latino boy, so yep. -White woman (T. Kingfisher): Protagonist is a white woman, so yep. -White man (Jim Butcher): Protagonist is a white man, so yep. -Black woman (Tomi Adeyemi): Protagonist is a Black woman, so yep. -White man (I think: Scott Reintgen): Protagonist is a Black boy, so nope (this one I had to look up: it’s rare, IME, for a White man to write a story from the perspective of a specifically African American teen. I found an interview where he said he was informed by his career as a Durham NC high school teacher, and wanted to write SF that his students would see themselves in). The diversity of perspectives that often shows up with a diversity among authors is one of the exciting things about modern sf/fantasy. I keep hearing folks saying that they don’t even know the author names who are winning awards, and I just want to repeat: **modern science fiction/fantasy is amazing**. If you’re a genre fan who hasn’t been keeping up, it’s like being a television drama fan who hasn’t watched any show from the last 20 years. Great things are happening in the field, jump in! ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/74 "2020-12-03T19:39:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > That was beautiful. But, yes, I dont think it is really SF or fantasy. That is a fair point. It is a love poem in prose. Wrong genre. But lovely. > > It’s not in the firm center of the genre, but it imagines someone being a zookeeper for a dinosaur, scientists reviving dinosaurs with genetic engineering, the speaker turning into a literal flower, a science-fictional world, a world of magic where anything is possible, and so on. It’s definitely a piece that’s familiar with, and depends on, the tropes of speculative genre fiction. > > I’m all for including works like this in a big genre tent Fair enough. But I’d call that big genre _speculative fiction_, rather than _science fiction_. That story you posted - which is, yes, beautiful - feels like it has more in common thematically with the magical realism of Lara Esquivel (_Like Water For Chocolate_) or Isabel Allende (_Eva Luna_). It reminds me of A.S. Byatt’s novella _The Djinn In The Nightingale’s Eye_, which is about a middle-aged woman who inadvertantly releases a djinn. Or her story _A Lamia In The Cevannes_, in which a painter discovers a mermaid in his swimming pool. In both of these works, like “If You Were A Dinosaur, My Love”, the fantastical elements are tropes, in service to the relationships that are the heart of each story. Whereas science fiction, IMHO, deals with the _effects_ of the speculative elements on the relationships and cultures in which they’re set. Bujold’s whole Vorkosigan Saga, for example, is an exploration of the impact of biotechnologies on human civilizations. In the long run, though, does genre really matter? Good literature is good literature, regardless of whatever box it’s crammed into; the map is not the territory. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/75 "2020-12-03T19:41:57Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > In the long run, though, does genre really matter? Good literature is good literature, regardless of whatever box it’s crammed into; the map is not the territory. Sure. But if you are handing out awards for Best SF, as opposed to Best fiction, then perhaps a line has to be drawn somewhere. So- “it’s not really Fantasy or SF” is a legit complaint. But “it’s PC crap” is very very dead wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/76 "2020-12-03T19:46:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not in this thread, but in the outside world, Butcher is given a hard time for this. > > Do you need a cite for that? I think I’ve read every book Butcher has published, and I’ll give him a hard time for it, too. Dresden as a character is kind of an asshole, and not the fun kind: he’s smug and to some degree misogynistic. I enjoy enough other facets of the book that I put up with that, but I wish Butcher didn’t write him that way. But that has nothing to do with whether I consider his works, or the Dinosaur story, science fiction/fantasy. Sturgeon invented his law within the genre. > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Fair enough. But I’d call that big genre _speculative fiction_ , rather than _science fiction_ . I mean, sure? Like I say, I want the genre to expand, I am delighted when people do something in the field that I’ve never seen before. I like my novels novel. To the extent that the Hugo/Nebula awards are looking outside of pure space opera/sword-and-sorcery, I’m elated. There should be a line somewhere, of course: if _Knives Out_ were nominated for a Nebula, I’d be bewildered. But I want to draw a big circle, not a little circle; and genre-adjacent stuff is well within the circle I’d draw. Pretty much all speculative fiction would be inside. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/77 "2020-12-03T20:19:13Z")
I’ve seen debates about whether alternate history is part of the science fiction genre. And I can see the point; something like Harry Turtledove’s _The War That Came Early_ or Robert Harris’ _Fatherland_ or Brendan DuBois’ _Resurrection Day_ have no science fiction elements in them. They’re historical thrillers - except not set in real world history. But to me, they feel like science fiction and I have no problem categorizing them alongside works of straight up science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/78 "2020-12-03T20:28:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Dresden as a character is kind of an asshole, and not the fun kind: he’s smug and to some degree misogynistic. Do you think Butcher _intended_ him to be “kind of an asshole”—perhaps because that fits the hard-boiled private eye vibe he was going for? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/79 "2020-12-03T20:31:08Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I read the first of Jim Butcher’s Dresden Files books (though I have been told he is a flaming asshole IRL) Funny - when I met him in real life he was charming, decent, and the very opposite of that. Either someone got him on a bad day, I met him on an exceptionally good day, or maybe the other person did something to warrant an asshole response. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/80 "2020-12-03T20:38:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > > In the long run, though, does genre really matter? Good literature is good literature, regardless of whatever box it’s crammed into; the map is not the territory. > > Sure. But if you are handing out awards for Best SF, as opposed to Best fiction, then perhaps a line has to be drawn somewhere. > > So- “it’s not really Fantasy or SF” is a legit complaint. But “it’s PC crap” is very very dead wrong. Note that the story did win the Nebula, so it impressed professional SF/fantasy writers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=5)