# Explain the Sad Puppies (Science Fiction Controversy) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [December 2, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019 "2020-12-02T16:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/81 "2020-12-03T20:44:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have exchanged a couple PMs with Jim, and been in some chats with him, and he seems quite nice and willing to reach out to his fans. Not a hint of “flaming asshole”. What I have is hearsay. One of my close writer friends knows people who used to game with him and they report that he is a jerk. That’s all I’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/82 "2020-12-03T20:53:10Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Do you think Butcher _intended_ him to be “kind of an asshole”—perhaps because that fits the hard-boiled private eye vibe he was going for? Yeah, that’s real possible. But like I say, the misogyny and smugness make him not a _fun_ asshole. For my tastes, anyway, those character traits make him less enjoyable to read. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/83 "2020-12-03T22:12:36Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > But I’d call that big genre _speculative fiction_ , rather than _science fiction_ . People have tried to make “speculative fiction” a thing since, well, since Heinlein re-invented the term in 1947 and called for its use. It’s never caught on with the public, even if some academics and literary types use it. I see no future in which it will, either. Interestingly, in 1947 the generic name for the field was “fantasy.” It turned over very shortly after to “science fiction,” influenced by the surge of atomic war novels and books about space travel. After 1952, when the Science Fiction Book Club was launched, science fiction was basically the only term that the general public used or understood. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/84 "2020-12-03T22:27:02Z")
This is the trouble for me. Of course it’s possible for someone to write a protagonist who is steeped in all the cultural tropes that the writer grew up around, who takes a particular sardonic view of human nature that maps very well to a person of the writer’s demographic, broadly and also specifically, and who is also an apologetic-but-not-really, self-aware-but-not-enough-to-stop, still-successful-and-never-suffers-consequences-for-it casual misogynist, but not actually endorse any of those views and not have any of those things be true _because_ of an identification between writer and protagonist. It’s extremely possible. It’s just, like, if that’s what you’re writing, that’s not as cool as writing the part where the guy can freeze a whole lake while he’s in it. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/85 "2020-12-03T22:38:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > > > I know nothing of Correia as an individual so I will not characterize him in any way. I > > I follow him on FB. He is the very worst kind of MAGA hat wearing, hate spreading, covid denying, homophobic, propaganda spreading, flaming asshole. He, of course, is spreading every trump weird conspiracy theory about the stolen election. He posted a picture of Joe kissing his granddaughter at her parents funeral (Joe’s son) and used it to show that Biden was a pedophile. > > There is possibly no worse asshole in SF. And that is why I did not buy a book of short stories that included one from an author I love, because it also included one from him. I’ll wait for another collection that’s only her stuff to buy it, because I refuse to support asses like Correia. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/86 "2020-12-03T22:39:02Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > > > Are there multiple perspectives on this subject? Are there multiple perspectives on Qanon? > > A lot of this is reminding me of GamerGate. Most of what I’ve learned about both Sad Puppies _and_ GamerGate (mostly on rationalwiki) suggests that SP was a spinoff of GG. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/87 "2020-12-03T22:40:28Z")
They’re basically all the same thing, actually (including Q, I mean). It’s all just different hobbies 4chan got into. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/88 "2020-12-03T22:45:47Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The story that every one of the pointed out as being Everything That Is Wrong with SF was something called, ["If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love](https://apex-magazine.com/if-you-were-a-dinosaur-my-love/)." Now there are legitimate arguments that can be made against the story (is there any SF/fantastic element?, for instance), but the argument was that it was nothing but an excuse for political correctness run wild. (One amusing thing is that the gender of the narrator and the love is never specified, so the event could have easily have happened to two traditional opposite sex characters). Nitpick: In fact, [the narrator and her love do seem to be intended as two traditional opposite sex characters, although the love might be somewhat gender-fluid or nonconforming:](https://apex-magazine.com/if-you-were-a-dinosaur-my-love/) > [@](#): > > If they built you a mate, I’d stand as the best woman at your wedding. […] > > A T-Rex, even a small one, would never have to stand against five blustering men soaked in gin and malice. A T-Rex would bare its fangs and they would cower. […] They’d grasp each other for comfort instead of seizing the pool cues with which they beat you, calling you a fag, a towel-head, a shemale, a sissy, a spic, every epithet they could think of, regardless of whether it had anything to do with you or not, shouting and shouting as you slid to the floor in the slick of your own blood. […] > > How reporters adore my face, the face of the paleontologist’s fiancée with her half-planned wedding, bouquets of hydrangeas already ordered, green chiffon bridesmaid dresses already picked out. The paleontologist’s fiancée who waits by the bedside of a man who will probably never wake. > > If you were a dinosaur, my love, then nothing could break you […] I’d trust in your teeth and talons to keep you/me/us safe now and forever from the scratch of chalk on pool cues, and the scuff of the nurses’ shoes in the hospital corridor, and the stuttering of my broken heart. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/89 "2020-12-03T23:43:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think I’ve read every book Butcher has published, and I’ll give him a hard time for it, too. Dresden as a character is kind of an asshole, Yeah, but Dresden is a _fictional character,_ not Jim. Lots of books have jerks are protagonists. Dresden is flawed, which makes him better. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/90 "2020-12-03T23:48:12Z")
Like I said it was beautiful. And it was allowed in, so it met whatever criteria they had. However, you could argue that it wasnt SF so the criteria was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/91 "2020-12-03T23:54:38Z")
Hell, I can remember back when people seriously argued that fantasy stories shouldn’t be allowed in the awards because they were being given for science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/92 "2020-12-03T23:56:29Z")
Sure, and maybe they were right, so they changed the criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2020, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/93 "2020-12-03T23:58:38Z")
The criteria never changed, to my knowledge. Attitudes did. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/94 "2020-12-04T00:51:26Z")
I think you’re right. As early as the 1950s stories like “Or All the Seas with Oysters” which is certainly fantasy-tinged were winning the Hugo, and “The Lord of the Rings” was nominated for “Best All-Time Series” in 1966. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/95 "2020-12-04T01:15:58Z")
I have to elaborate on this - I agree with Exapno that attitudes about what was appropriate for a Hugo award shifted, while the actual rules didn’t change. In the early days, some unabashed fantasy was nominated for the Hugos (and sometimes won), but it was relatively rare (though the fact that it existed at all indicates that there was no rule against it) - but now attitudes have changed enough that fantasy wins moderately often (without any rule change - just with the attitude change Exapno referred to). ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/96 "2020-12-04T01:36:59Z")
Yes, I understand it was a small but vocal group who were opposed. Oddly, one major voice was Damon Knight, who founded SFWA. Since at least half the members also wrote fantasy I’ve never understood how he thought this would work. Just another example of writers being wackier than you think they are. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/97 "2020-12-04T02:36:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, but Dresden is a _fictional character,_ not Jim. > > Lots of books have jerks are protagonists. > > Dresden is flawed, which makes him better. “Yeah, but”? The rest of your post is a paraphrase of what I wrote, except that I emphasized that he’s not a _fun_ asshole (or a _fun_ jerk), so his flaw doesn’t actually make him better. It’s subjective, natch, but when your character’s flaw makes them less fun to read, it makes your book less appealing. FWIW, my wife has stopped reading the Dresden books entirely because of this. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/98 "2020-12-04T02:41:06Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > It’s just, like, if that’s what you’re writing, that’s not as cool as writing the part where the guy can freeze a whole lake while he’s in it. Well said. Dresden’s smart-assed, nigh-suicidal inability to shut the fuck up for a minute in the face of authority is a _fun_ flaw, and I delight in reading those passages, just like Dresden’s ability to do crazy-ass magic and to solve battles in unusual and spectacular ways is really fun. There’s a lot to like about the books. It just happens that there’s this one kind of glaring thing that I like a lot less about them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/99 "2020-12-04T03:10:44Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Interestingly, in 1947 the generic name for the field was “fantasy.” It turned over very shortly after to “science fiction,” influenced by the surge of atomic war novels and books about space travel. After 1952, when the Science Fiction Book Club was launched, science fiction was basically the only term that the general public used or understood. Let’s face it, scientifiction was a dumb idea. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/100 "2020-12-04T04:12:58Z")
Yeah and even Gernsback changed it to “science fiction” after two years. But I’ve found scientifiction used frequently much later in newspaper databases, not at all ironically. It lasted outside the core genre magazines much longer than you’d expect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=6)