# Explain the Sad Puppies (Science Fiction Controversy) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [December 2, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019 "2020-12-02T16:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/101 "2020-12-04T04:27:25Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Interestingly, in 1947 the generic name for the field was “fantasy.” It turned over very shortly after to “science fiction,” influenced by the surge of atomic war novels and books about space travel. After 1952, when the Science Fiction Book Club was launched, science fiction was basically the only term that the general public used or understood. Can you clarify that? Do you mean that “fantasy” was the term used to refer to both fantasy and science fiction (where today the general public might say “science fiction” to mean both fantasy and science fiction)? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/102 "2020-12-04T05:07:25Z")
Exactly. And in the field as well. None of the small presses that started up after the war had science fiction in their names but several had fantasy or words that conveyed fantasy. Same for the several book clubs that started in the same period. That’s also when fantasy went from being dominant in the book business to almost nonexistent, until its revival after the 60s Tolkien paperbacks. The war made science fiction real and respectable and the term made a sudden and unexpected climb to the top. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/103 "2020-12-04T11:18:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Yeah, but”? The rest of your post is a paraphrase of what I wrote, except that I emphasized that he’s not a _fun_ asshole (or a _fun_ jerk), so his flaw doesn’t actually make him better. It’s subjective, natch, but when your character’s flaw makes them less fun to read, it makes your book less appealing. > > FWIW, my wife has stopped reading the Dresden books entirely because of this. I understand where you’re coming from, but for me, what helps is that more often than not, those women Dresden’s leering at are smarter, tougher and more competent than he is, and are more likely to save/kick his ass then he is theirs. Butcher writes great, complex female characters - better than most contemporary fantasy writers, IMHO - and if he does get a bit lascivious in their descriptions, personally I can live with it. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/104 "2020-12-04T12:20:58Z")
Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/105 "2020-12-04T13:36:13Z")
From what I’ve read, they’re very smart and tough and competent. It is hard to miss that they’re all also extremely hot and all want to fuck the protagonist, though, and that at the end of the day he’s the hero who saves, uh, that day. I’m not sure if an author gets to play the complexity card because the cast of extremely hot characters who want to fuck him occupy lots of different and cool species, jobs, allegiances, skillsets, and statuses-as-juvenile-ward-of-him while he describes what their breasts look like. Among the things that made me no longer interested in the series was the way that Butcher always found a way to have the narrative suggest complexity without this formula actually changing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/106 "2020-12-04T13:41:53Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Among the things that made me no longer interested in the series was the way that Butcher always found a way to have the narrative suggest complexity without this formula actually changing. Kinda what my wife said. Flaws are great for characters when they start, but if there’s no character growth, one of the great potentials for storytelling is wasted. It doesn’t mean characters have to be flawless by the end, but there should be some change. I’m reading a different series now, Baru Cormorant, and the protagonist is a real piece of shit, WAY worse than Dresden. But she’s fascinating, in part because of how she struggles with her own actions and choices; and there’s definitely growth and change. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/107 "2020-12-04T14:31:20Z")
So from the Wikipedia article on Sad Puppies, it sounds like the book Correia was pissed about not being nominated was _Monster Hunter Legion_ ? That’s just nuts. His Monster Hunter series was really good for books 1 & 2, book 3 was pretty good, but Legion, book 4, was a big step down IMHO. Not that I’m claiming that any of them were Hugo worthy - if you like graphic descriptions of zombies/werewolves/vampires/wights/etc. being blown to pieces by modern weaponry (which I assuredly do), they’re good, fun stories, but they’re strictly popcorn-level adventure books. And they do have a streak of right wing fanaticism running through them, though from what I’m reading now about Correia, he apparently toned down his own beliefs before putting them in his protaganists brains. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/108 "2020-12-04T14:55:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > “Yeah, but”? The rest of your post is a paraphrase of what I wrote, except that I emphasized that he’s not a _fun_ asshole (or a _fun_ jerk), so his flaw doesn’t actually make him better. It’s subjective, natch, but when your character’s flaw makes them less fun to read, it makes your book less appealing. > > > > FWIW, my wife has stopped reading the Dresden books entirely because of this. > > I understand where you’re coming from, but for me, what helps is that more often than not, those women Dresden’s leering at are smarter, tougher and more competent than he is, and are more likely to save/kick his ass then he is theirs. Butcher writes great, complex female characters - better than most contemporary fantasy writers, IMHO - and if he does get a bit lascivious in their descriptions, personally I can live with it I don’t know if I agree with that. We never seem to get a sense of the interiority of Dresden’s female characters. IIRC, he’s only written one store from Murphy’s POV, in _Aftermaths_, and it reads like a standard hard-boiled tough guy cop perspective. Yes, Dresden’s women typically know how to throw down when shit gets real, but the “ass-kickin’, gun-slingin’ Action Grrl” can be just as much an unrealistic male fantasy as the “damsel-in-distress" or “Manic Pixie Dream Girl”. I’ve been re-reading my way through Lois McMaster Bujold’s _Vorkosigan Saga_ and her _World of the Five Gods_ series, and the difference between Butcher’s and her characterization, especially of women, is striking. Look at Bujold’s novel _Komarr_. The main plot is pure science fiction: terraforming, wormholes, a gravity-based secret weapon, an exciting showdown on a space station. But the other plot has co-protagonist Ekaterin Vorsoisson leaving her husband. Bujold does a masterful job of depicting the toxicity of Ekaterin’s marriage, and her decision to end it. And this process very much plays into the A-plot, and informs its climactic scene. I will give Butcher credit for thinking about the way their Action Grrl ass-kicking affects his female protagonists – he acknowledges that Molly and Murphy, for instance, are traumatized by their combat experiences. But I think that, even aside from Harry’s written sexism, Butcher shows some unconscious misogyny of his own. Notice how all of his Action Grrl characters are beautiful. Molly, Mab, Lash, Karrin Murphy, Maeve, Charity Carpenter, Susan Rodriguez; they’re all described as physically gorgeous. In fact, I can think of only one unattractive significant female character: Priscilla, the Skavis vampire from _White Nights_. Who turned out to be a man in drag. Note, as well, how often some (literally) supernaturally hot woman attempts to seduce him, or at least shows up nude. (Parenthetically, have you noticed that Butcher seems to have a problem with a certain word for a part of female body? Pro tip, Jim – those things at the “tips of [women’s] breasts” are called _nipples_. It’s not an obscenity.) ETA: Or what @Jimmy_Chitwood said. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/109 "2020-12-04T16:37:43Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > The main plot is pure science fiction: terraforming, wormholes, a gravity-based secret weapon, an exciting showdown on a space station. But the other plot has co-protagonist Ekaterin Vorsoisson leaving her husband. Bujold does a masterful job of depicting the toxicity of Ekaterin’s marriage, and her decision to end it. And this process very much plays into the A-plot, and informs its climactic scene. And it’s the moment where our long-suffering hero finally finds love! This heart-wrenching work is immediately followed by the gut-bustingly funny _A Civil Campaign_ which details how he finally succeeds in winning Etkatarin over. I adore Bujold. We named our kid after… well, Miles. We named him Miles. We may be asking for trouble. So far my impression of Harry Dresden is that he’s an anachronism, and his sexism is basically the butt of an ongoing joke. I don’t like to read misogynist characters so I can see it putting me off the series (although the first book was fine, if a bit silly.) But a Hugo? Really? Bujold he ain’t. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/110 "2020-12-04T17:34:59Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > > The main plot is pure science fiction: terraforming, wormholes, a gravity-based secret weapon, an exciting showdown on a space station. But the other plot has co-protagonist Ekaterin Vorsoisson leaving her husband. Bujold does a masterful job of depicting the toxicity of Ekaterin’s marriage, and her decision to end it. And this process very much plays into the A-plot, and informs its climactic scene. > > And it’s the moment where our long-suffering hero finally finds love! This heart-wrenching work is immediately followed by the gut-bustingly funny _A Civil Campaign_ which details how he finally succeeds in winning Etkatarin over. > > I adore Bujold. We named our kid after… well, Miles. We named him Miles. We may be asking for trouble. > > So far my impression of Harry Dresden is that he’s an anachronism, and his sexism is basically the butt of an ongoing joke. I don’t like to read misogynist characters so I can see it putting me off the series (although the first book was fine, if a bit silly.) > > But a Hugo? Really? Bujold he ain’t Oh, dear – I shouldn’t start talking about all the ways Lois McMaster Bujold is awesome, lest the thread drown in squee. I’ve probably read _A Civil Campaign_ a dozen times. Although, to tie it back into the subject of this thread, I wouldn’t call it “science fiction” - it’s a political thriller, with moments of romantic comedy, that’s set on an alien planet. Again, though, Bujold does a fine job of showing us Ekaterin’s - and Miles’ - interior lives, the process of growth they both go through over the course of the story. And that leads directly to the resolution of the novel’s conflict. (And Gregor’s finally found love, which makes me happy!) It’s not just that Bujold is a woman and Butcher a man, either – Bujold is equally good at writing fully fleshed-out, emotionally complex male characters, like Miles, Ivan Vorpatril, or Cazaril from the _The Curse of Chalion._ Have you read Bujold’s Penric and Desdemona novellas? Or her Chalion stories? Pen and Des are among my favorite Bujold characters. (Although I was delighted that Ivan finally got his own novel, too - he’s another fave who deserved a bit of happiness.) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/111 "2020-12-04T17:42:30Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Oh, dear – I shouldn’t start talking about all the ways Lois McMaster Bujold is awesome, lest the thread drown in squee. I’ve probably read _A Civil Campaign_ a dozen times. Although, to tie it back into the subject of this thread, I wouldn’t call it “science fiction” - it’s a political thriller, with moments of romantic comedy, that’s set on an alien planet. Almost all the subplots are driven by advances in bio-tech - Lord Dono’s transformation, the butterbugs, the uterine replicator’s facilitation of Lord VorCrazy’s baby factory, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/112 "2020-12-04T18:08:58Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > > Oh, dear – I shouldn’t start talking about all the ways Lois McMaster Bujold is awesome, lest the thread drown in squee. I’ve probably read _A Civil Campaign_ a dozen times. Although, to tie it back into the subject of this thread, I wouldn’t call it “science fiction” - it’s a political thriller, with moments of romantic comedy, that’s set on an alien planet. > > Almost all the subplots are driven by advances in bio-tech - Lord Dono’s transformation, the butterbugs, the uterine replicator’s facilitation of Lord VorCrazy’s baby factory, etc Fair point. However, the main plots are Ekaterin and Miles’ courtship, Mark and Kareen’s conflict with the Koudelkas, and the succession fight over the Vorbretten and Vorrutyer Countships. None of those - with the exception of Lord Dono - are dependent on sci-fi technology (I’m not counting Rene’s Cetagandan ancestry, since the sort of genetic scanning that turned it up is, I believe, currently available in the real world.) However, and as per @Left_Hand_of_Dorkness 's “big tent” post, I wouldn’t argue if you wanted to classify _A Civil Campaign_ as science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/113 "2020-12-04T18:14:36Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Have you read Bujold’s Penric and Desdemona novellas? Or her Chalion stories? Pen and Des are among my favorite Bujold characters. (Although I was delighted that Ivan finally got his own novel, too - he’s another fave who deserved a bit of happiness.) I haven’t. In fact I still have more to read of the Vorkosigan Saga. The last in the series I read was _Winterfair Gifts._ A gross oversight, I know. Bujold has the only book series I know that just gets better and better. Eighteen, nineteen books in and the everything is still so riveting. My favorite book (top ten ever) would be _Mirror Dance._ Mark Vorkosigan is a lovingly rendered and complex character. Bujold deserves all her Hugos. I’m a writer and I’d kill to be half as good. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/114 "2020-12-04T18:24:43Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > > Have you read Bujold’s Penric and Desdemona novellas? Or her Chalion stories? Pen and Des are among my favorite Bujold characters. (Although I was delighted that Ivan finally got his own novel, too - he’s another fave who deserved a bit of happiness.) > > I haven’t. In fact I still have more to read of the Vorkosigan Saga. The last in the series I read was _Winterfair Gifts._ A gross oversight, I know. Bujold has the only book series I know that just gets better and better. Eighteen, nineteen books in and the everything is still so riveting. My favorite book (top ten ever) would be _Mirror Dance._ Mark Vorkosigan is a lovingly rendered and complex character. > > Bujold deserves all her Hugos. I’m a writer and I’d kill to be half as good Oh, you’re going to love _Captain Vorpatril’s Alliance_. And _Cryoburn_ shows that she equally skilled in creating child characters. But when you’re finished with the Vorkosigan books, hie yourself _immediately_ over to the Five Gods books, starting with _The Curse of Chalion_. The second of that series, _Paladin of Souls_, is unique in my experience - a medievalesque swords-and-sorcery tale whose hero is a middle-aged widowed grandmother. And she’s awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/115 "2020-12-04T18:40:37Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > The second of that series, _Paladin of Souls_ , is unique in my experience - a medievalesque swords-and-sorcery tale whose hero is a middle-aged widowed grandmother. And she has one of the best, “I am about to kick the ass of everyone in this room,” scenes I’ve read. “I am the Mouth of Hell.” ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/116 "2020-12-04T18:48:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > > The second of that series, _Paladin of Souls_ , is unique in my experience - a medievalesque swords-and-sorcery tale whose hero is a middle-aged widowed grandmother. > > And she has one of the best, “I am about to kick the ass of everyone in this room,” scenes I’ve read > > “I am the Mouth of Hell.” That’s why I called her the _hero_, as opposed to the _protagonist_, of the story. Not only is Ista the viewpoint character, she’s also drives the action, resolves the conflict, and saves the day. She even gets the traditional hero’s reward - she wins the heart of the damsel-in-distress (“dude in distress”, maybe? I mean Lord Ilvan, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/117 "2020-12-04T18:49:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And she has one of the best, “I am about to kick the ass of everyone in this room,” scenes I’ve read. Does it beat Cordelia crashing a meeting of Important Men by pulling the severed head of their enemy out of a shopping bag and throwing it on the table? Because that was a moment. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/118 "2020-12-04T18:50:41Z")
Close. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/119 "2020-12-04T18:55:36Z")
Somehow I’ve managed to avoid Bujold (I think), despite reading hundreds or maybe thousands of sf/fantasy books. Where would y’all recommend I start? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/120 "2020-12-04T19:01:37Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Does it beat Cordelia crashing a meeting of Important Men by pulling the severed head of their enemy out of a shopping bag and throwing it on the table? Probably depends on which one I’ve read most recently, tbh. They’re both excellent crowning moments of awesome. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=7)