# Explain the Sad Puppies (Science Fiction Controversy) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [December 2, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019 "2020-12-02T16:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/121 "2020-12-04T19:06:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Somehow I’ve managed to avoid Bujold (I think), despite reading hundreds or maybe thousands of sf/fantasy books. Where would y’all recommend I start? FWIW, Bujold wrote [a whole essay](https://www.goodreads.com/story/show/293438-the-vorkosigan-saga-reading-order-debate-the-chef-recommends) about this question (although it kind of boils down to “wherever you want” with a few caveats). ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/122 "2020-12-04T19:08:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Somehow I’ve managed to avoid Bujold (I think), despite reading hundreds or maybe thousands of sf/fantasy books. Where would y’all recommend I start? Chances are you’ll want to read the whole Vorkosigan saga, which is arguably her greatest achievement. I recommend reading them in the order listed in the link below under " MY VORKOSIGAN SAGA READING ORDER FOR ULTIMATE ENJOYMENT (CHRONOLOGICAL, WITH A FEW TWEAKS)" (so, starting with the two “Cordelia” books, Shards of Honor and Barrayar): > **[Your Ultimate Guide to the Vorkosigan Saga Reading Order | Book Riot](https://bookriot.com/vorkosigan-saga-reading-order/)** > > A handy guide to the Vorkosigan Saga reading order, with tips for the best order in which to enjoy this classic sci-fi series. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/123 "2020-12-04T19:10:31Z")
Awesome, thanks! I’m reading _Empire of Gold_, which is a real doorstop, and then I’ve got three on hold at the library, but I’m putting these in my library list. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/124 "2020-12-04T19:18:05Z")
I think they are best read in chronological order, with the caveat that the first book in the series is not as strong as the others. So, I’d go with _Shards of Honor_ _Barrayar_ _The Warrior’s Apprentice_ which introduces the main protagonist, Miles Vorkosigan. If you aren’t feeling _Shards of Honor,_ jump right to _Barrayar,_ which you must read. I want to add that Aral Vorkosigan is the only book character I have ever fallen in love with. In the sense that I would have all his babies. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/125 "2020-12-04T19:18:51Z")
That’s helpful: I’m not a completionist at all, and would rather start with the best one that I can read without being lost in. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/126 "2020-12-04T19:18:53Z")
The problem with the chauvinistic male protagonist is that very often the chauvinism isn’t really there to show a character is “flawed”, it’s there to show he’s _transgressive_, in a badass, maverick sorta way. The reader isn’t being invited to explore the way his chauvinism is shaping his experiences and shading his understanding, they are being invited to admire the way his independent, bold approach allows him to win the day. Stories shouldn’t be morality plays and it’s okay for a flawed character to just be who they are. But the sheer relentlessness of the trope suggests that it’s more than just how that particular character took form in a given author’s mind. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/127 "2020-12-04T19:21:59Z")
The Vorkosigan Saga is her big thing. There’s a lot of novels there, and they weren’t all written in chronological order. There’s a good timeline [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorkosigan_Saga) You can skip _Falling Free_ for now. It’s a good novel, but it’s set a few hundred years before the rest of the series, and explores a culture that’s not introduced in the main series until a few books in. Start with _Shards of Honor_ and _Barrayar_ first - they’re short-ish novels, and are usually sold in one volume these days. They set up the universe, and explain how the series protagonist’s parents met, and some events that happened before he was born that fundamentally shape his entire life. _The Warrior’s Apprentice_ starts Miles’ story, which is the focus of most of the rest of the novels set in that universe. If you fantasy is more your jam right now, try _The Curse of Chalion_ followed by _Paladin of Souls,_ which are set in a fairly traditional low-magic milieu with a really interesting theological system. There’s a third novel set in the same universe, but not connected to the characters in the other two novels. _The Hallowed Hunt,_ which a lot of people view as one of Bujold’s weaker novels. I like it okay, but I can see their point. Enjoy! Just from interacting with you on this message board over the years, I think there’s a really good chance you’re about to discover one of your favorite authors. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/128 "2020-12-04T19:24:30Z")
All the Bujold fans rushing in here to make exactly the same recommendation to **LHoD** : [![](https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/imdsZDtd.LUk/v0/1200x-1.jpg) ](https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/imdsZDtd.LUk/v0/1200x-1.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/129 "2020-12-04T19:24:38Z")
I think it adds needed dimension when assholes are called out for being assholes. My distaste for how much bullshit male characters get away with in romance novels led me to write my own. My hero does a shitty thing and pays the price - in how people view him, in his relationship to the person he injured, and in his own guilt. (And this is tangentially related because I write sci fi/fantasy.) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/130 "2020-12-04T19:26:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s helpful: I’m not a completionist at all, and would rather start with the best one that I can read without being lost in. Yes, and I’ve lost a couple new Bujold readers to _Shards of Honor_ and I want to scream at them “but you don’t know what you’re missiiiiiing!” ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/131 "2020-12-04T19:40:39Z")
Bujold is awesome, and I don’t say that only to support a fellow Buckeye. Besides her excellent science fiction, she writes excellent “fantasy”. See [The Sharing Knife](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sharing_Knife). She sets a world and then focuses on characters within that world. This series doesn’t have the space-ships-and-lasers settings, but the magic of the world has well-defined rules that are followed. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/132 "2020-12-04T20:29:21Z")
I would be one of those. Tried her stuff, didn’t care for it, never bothered to return to it. Too much other stuff out there to read. Just an “opposing” viewpoint. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/133 "2020-12-04T20:34:47Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Bujold is awesome, and I don’t say that only to support a fellow Buckeye. Besides her excellent science fiction, she writes excellent “fantasy”. See [The Sharing Knife](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sharing_Knife). She sets a world and then focuses on characters within that world. This series doesn’t have the space-ships-and-lasers settings, but the magic of the world has well-defined rules that are followed Agreed. She called her Five Gods pantheon an exercise in “speculative religion”, and it’s very clever. Especially the heart of the theology: that the five gods (the Mother, the Father, the Daughter, the Son, and the Bastard) have no material power, save through the humans who open themselves to the gods, acting as their hands in the world. It’s an interesting and well-thought-out take on theism. I would love to see a miniseries made out of the Chalion novels, but I’m afraid that the casual viewer would see it merely as a ripoff of _Game of Thrones_, and George R.R. Martin’s religion of the Seven. Which is of course ridiculous; thematically, the two universes are nothing alike. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/134 "2020-12-04T22:07:31Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > The problem with the chauvinistic male protagonist is that very often the chauvinism isn’t really there to show a character is “flawed”, it’s there to show he’s _transgressive_, in a badass, maverick sorta way. The reader isn’t being invited to explore the way his chauvinism is shaping his experiences and shading his understanding, they are being invited to admire the way his independent, bold approach allows him to win the day. > > Stories shouldn’t be morality plays and it’s okay for a flawed character to just be who they are. But the sheer relentlessness of the trope suggests that it’s more than just how that particular character took form in a given author’s mind This is an excellent point. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/135 "2020-12-04T22:25:38Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > Fair point. However, the main plots are Ekaterin and Miles’ courtship, Mark and Kareen’s conflict with the Koudelkas, and the succession fight over the Vorbretten and Vorrutyer Countships. None of those - with the exception of Lord Dono - are dependent on sci-fi technology (I’m not counting Rene’s Cetagandan ancestry, since the sort of genetic scanning that turned it up is, I believe, currently available in the real world.) Point taken, but even the romance and Vorbretten situations have some connection with SF premises. To create a situation where someone’s suddenly discovered ancestry is causing the kind of impact it has on the Vorbrettens (loss of political position, etc.), I think Bujold needed to set the book on a different planet (it used to be that writers could have a mysterious realm in some part of the world not in contact with the rest of the world - but it’s hard to get away with that anymore). On a different level, the courtship of Miles and Ekaterin was impacted by the oversupply of men and undersupply of women on Barrayar – which is a consequence of the uterine replicator. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/136 "2020-12-04T22:36:53Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > > Fair point. However, the main plots are Ekaterin and Miles’ courtship, Mark and Kareen’s conflict with the Koudelkas, and the succession fight over the Vorbretten and Vorrutyer Countships. None of those - with the exception of Lord Dono - are dependent on sci-fi technology (I’m not counting Rene’s Cetagandan ancestry, since the sort of genetic scanning that turned it up is, I believe, currently available in the real world.) > > Point taken, but even the romance and Vorbretten situations have some connection with SF premises. To create a situation where someone’s suddenly discovered ancestry is causing the kind of impact it has on the Vorbrettens (loss of political position, etc.), I think Bujold needed to set the book on a different planet (it used to be that writers could have a mysterious realm in some part of the world not in contact with the rest of the world - but it’s hard to get away with that anymore). On a different level, the courtship of Miles and Ekaterin was impacted by the oversupply of men and undersupply of women on Barrayar – which is a consequence of the uterine replicator It’s not a hill on which I’m prepared to die. But I’d point out that in real life, right now, China has exactly the same demographic issue that Barrayar does - skewed sex ratio. And that has nothing to do with uterine replicators. And Ekaterin’s conflict has less to do with the oversupply of men than it does with the scars left by her previous marriage. But I’d say you’re making your argument better than I’m making mine. Maybe science fiction is like Potter Stewart’s definition of porn - you know it when you see it. _A Civil Campaign_ (as well as _Captain Vorpatril’s Alliance_ and _Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen_) just don’t feel science-fiction-y to me, the way _Cetaganda_ or _Cryoburn_ or _Diplomatic Immunity_ do. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/137 "2020-12-05T01:14:03Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > It’s not a hill on which I’m prepared to die. But I’d point out that in real life, right now, China has exactly the same demographic issue that Barrayar does - skewed sex ratio. And that has nothing to do with uterine replicators. And Ekaterin’s conflict has less to do with the oversupply of men than it does with the scars left by her previous marriage. > > But I’d say you’re making your argument better than I’m making mine. Maybe science fiction is like Potter Stewart’s definition of porn - you know it when you see it. _A Civil Campaign_ (as well as _Captain Vorpatril’s Alliance_ and _Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen_) just don’t feel science-fiction-y to me, the way _Cetaganda_ or _Cryoburn_ or _Diplomatic Immunity_ do. Thank you. I understand your point as well (and as I think about it, Ivan is the one more hampered by the sex ratio issue). “Barrayar” (the planet) gives Bujold the opportunity to talk about the issues that China is facing with a skewed sex ratio, and the freedom to see how that works in a culture she’s created- an opportunity she wouldn’t have if she were writing straight fiction. The stuff I have a hard time seeing as science fiction are the ones that have people who are identical to US soldiers using tactics and strategies essentially identical to those of today, with the only SF element being that they’re killing aliens or zombies, who have no particular characteristics other than being targets. But live and let live (or “Die Alien Scum”)… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/138 "2020-12-05T04:59:16Z")
Jumping in on the Bujold question because I am a huge fan. My recommendation for somebody who wants to check out her work is a little unusual. I recommend starting with _The Curse of Chalion_. I know the Vorkosigan stories are generally considered Bujold’s main series. But it has a problem which others have referred to; Bujold grew as an author and the early works in the Vorkosigan series were written before she hit her full stride as an author. But the Five Gods series doesn’t have that issue. _The Curse of Chalion_ is both the first book written in the series and, in my opinion, the best book in the series. So you’re starting on a high note and being introduced to Bujold at her best. You can read through the Five Gods series and then double back to the Vorkosigan books if you want more Bujold. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/139 "2020-12-05T06:17:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > know the Vorkosigan stories are generally considered Bujold’s main series. But it has a problem which others have referred to; Bujold grew as an author and the early works in the Vorkosigan series were written before she hit her full stride as an author. > > But the Five Gods series doesn’t have that issue. _The Curse of Chalion_ is both the first book written in the series and, in my opinion, the best book in the series. So you’re starting on a high note and being introduced to Bujold at her best. I have to admit, I didnt care for the Vorkosigan series, but that was likely as i only read book 1 and maybe 2. So I just ordered _The Curse of Chalion_ , however, it sez it is “ **Book 1 of 3:** Chalion” nothing about Five Gods. On that note, perhaps we need to get back to the OP? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/140 "2020-12-05T22:43:28Z")
Kimstu, maybe you should have spoilered that? I haven’t read the story yet. I don’t get all that worked up about spoilers, myself, but I suspect having read that bit first is going to change the impact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=8)