# Explain the Sad Puppies (Science Fiction Controversy) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [December 2, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019 "2020-12-02T16:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/141 "2020-12-05T22:58:31Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > From what I’ve read, they’re very smart and tough and competent. > > It is hard to miss that they’re all also extremely hot and all want to fuck the protagonist, though, and that at the end of the day he’s the hero who saves, uh, that day. Ah, the Heinlein school of “strong” women. > [@Miller](#): > > You can skip _Falling Free_ for now. It’s a good novel, but it’s set a few hundred years before the rest of the series Falling Free’s not really part of the Vorkosigan series, though she did work it in there later on. But it’s a great book. “It’s an engineering problem” – Bujold’s actually a bit too into pairing people neatly off for my tastes – a few of the books seem to be written primarily for that purpose. But even in some of those, there’s often something else she’s working on getting into the back of the readers’ heads while they’re busy reading the love story. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2020, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/142 "2020-12-06T04:33:39Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Kimstu, maybe you should have spoilered that? I haven’t read the story yet. I don’t get all that worked up about spoilers, myself, but I suspect having read that bit first is going to change the impact. Eek, sorry about that, I guess you’re right. I was thinking of it as more of a medium-length prose poem than a short story with a sequential plot that could be “spoiled”, which I suppose is just another way the author is overturning our genre expectations. Mods, please feel free to rectify my error (in fact, I think I’ll report the post myself to flag it for them). ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2020, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/143 "2020-12-06T18:48:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Somehow I’ve managed to avoid Bujold (I think), despite reading hundreds or maybe thousands of sf/fantasy books. Where would y’all recommend I start? _Curse of Chalion_ and _Paladin of Souls_ are two of the finest fantasy novels I have ever read. Or follow the recommendation of others regarding the Vor series, if you’re leaning more SF than fantasy at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2020, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/144 "2020-12-06T19:03:04Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Turned virulently against Vietnam protesters. Was a narcissist on Trump’s level. Wrote condescending sexist and racist drivel. Made a large audience at a Worldcon which came to worship him howl in anger. Put up an electric fence to keep away hippie fans. Went from flaming liberal to crypto-fascist. > > There were many Heinleins. The Puppies would approve of a lot of them. On that subject, it is interesting to check this funny review of Heinlein’s _Stranger in a Strange Land_. Red, the woman reviewer from Overly Sarcastic Productions gives a very female perspective to items that some reviewers from the past did not mention much about Heinlein’s ideas. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/3jAkplrZci0/maxresdefault.jpg "Modern Classics Summarized: Stranger In A Strange Land") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jAkplrZci0) Special attention to her asides bout “Deep Thoughts with Heinlein” 🙂 Can Grok that. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2020, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/145 "2020-12-06T23:32:40Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > it is interesting to check this funny review of Heinlein’s _Stranger in a Strange Land_ That was a lot of fun. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2020, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/146 "2020-12-07T00:36:29Z")
I attended SMOFCon in virtual mode all day yesterday. SMOFCon is an annual convention attended by those who run science fiction conventions(SMOF stands for Secret Masters Of Fandom-an injoke), and in all the panels and discussions I attended there was not one mention of any of the “puppie” groups or of those behind them. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2020, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/147 "2020-12-07T00:43:14Z")
Glad to hear they’re sinking into irrelevancy. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2020, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/148 "2020-12-07T01:45:54Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > On that subject, it is interesting to check this funny review of Heinlein’s _Stranger in a Strange Land_ . Red, the woman reviewer from Overly Sarcastic Productions gives a very female perspective to items that some reviewers from the past did not mention much about Heinlein’s ideas. How did she do that without taking a breath? 😲 When I was 18 I thought _Stranger_ was the best book I ever read. Then I turned 19. It’s truly amazing how many 18-year-olds there are reading sf. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/149 "2020-12-08T20:45:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > know the Vorkosigan stories are generally considered Bujold’s main series. But it has a problem which others have referred to; Bujold grew as an author and the early works in the Vorkosigan series were written before she hit her full stride as an author. > > > > But the Five Gods series doesn’t have that issue. _The Curse of Chalion_ is both the first book written in the series and, in my opinion, the best book in the series. So you’re starting on a high note and being introduced to Bujold at her best. > > I have to admit, I didnt care for the Vorkosigan series, but that was likely as i only read book 1 and maybe 2. So I just ordered _The Curse of Chalion_ , however, it sez it is “ **Book 1 of 3:** Chalion” nothing about Five Gods > > On that note, perhaps we need to get back to the OP? _The Curse of Chalion_ and _Paladin of Souls_ are both set in a county called Chalion, that Bujold based on 15th c. Spain. The next novel, _The Hallowed Hunt_, is set in a different country on the same continent. Then Bujold started a series of novellas about a sorcerer called Penric, and his demon Desdemona. Same world as _Curse_, _Paladin_, and _Hunt_, but different times and different countries within that world. The commonality to all these stories is the interaction of people with the five gods that created the world (but can’t materially affect it without the willing cooperation of a human saint). So Bujold stopped calling the series “the Chalion novels”, and re-dubbed them “the World of the Five Gods”. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/150 "2020-12-08T20:50:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > On that note, perhaps we need to get back to the OP? I feel some pleasure that a thread about the Sad Puppies has been hijacked into a Bujold discussion. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/151 "2020-12-08T21:18:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I attended SMOFCon in virtual mode all day yesterday. SMOFCon is an annual convention attended by those who run science fiction conventions(SMOF stands for Secret Masters Of Fandom-an injoke), and in all the panels and discussions I attended there was not one mention of any of the “puppie” groups or of those behind them. The puppies were always a minority of fandom (note they needed to manipulate the Hugo ballot to get any attention). I’ve been running Albacon and I don’t think we’ve ever had anyone show up who identified with the group. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/152 "2020-12-08T21:26:23Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Absolutely - and they’d loathe other versions of him. They basically worship the books he wrote from 1959 to 1966 (and not all of those), and assume that that period defines his entire output - **hence the idea that he has humans superior to all aliens,** etc., when a defining characteristic of his earlier work is aliens so far in advance of humans that humanity must retreat, or be very polite indeed. Ok, sorry to sidetrack for a sec, and sorry if someone else already brought this up - I am still catching up. But the bolded bit brings up a question I have. Quick note - I’m gonna talk about the ugly underbelly of a couple gaming communities. I’m not trying to shit on people who play video games in general. In fact, the only reason I’m familiar with these people is because I play all of the games I’m about to mention, and have had to deal with these sorts; please remember that they are a tiny minority of the people playing these games, and the companies making them have been doing better and better at distancing themselves from this crap - both because it is the right thing to do, and because it is probably starting to cost them money as sane customers get turned off by these sorts. Anyways- some background: The Grand Strategy video game world has its share of racist assholes, the type who play as Germany in Hearts of Iron IV a bit TOO enthusiastically (and complain that the Germany ingame, while led by Hitler [unless you restore the Kaiser instead!] uses Iron Crosses instead of Swastikas. To give another example, Crysader Kings II used to give you a little pop-up when a Crusade starts; if you are playing as a non-Catholic you get some dismissive message about dangerous infidels (if you are the target) or the bickering of fools (if you are not), or - if you are Catholic - it says “Deus Vult”. That same subgroup of grand strategy players spun this off into an anti-Muslim alt-right meme, and so (wisely) Paradox decided to distance themselves from this controversy, and when reporters asked about it, they said that the phrase Deus Vult would not return to Crusader Kings 3. Cue even more epic whining by the alt right subgroup. Well, obviously the Alt Right is gonna latch on to the Crusaders in a medieval game or the Germans in a WW2 game. And in a third strategy game, this one space based - Stellaris - the subgroup is obsessed with the Empire of Man from Warhammer 40k. Again, that makes sense - the Empire of Man is basically the Holy Roman Empire in space, so if you are the sort of Alt Right moron who idolizes nazis, you probably idolize Hitler’s version of the Second Reich. And Games Workshop has their own issues with the Alt Right, as they learned recently when they made a statement in support of… I think it was BLM? And a subgroup of their fanbase shat a brick. But more generally, they seem obsessed with exactly what you mentioned - the whole “humans are vastly superior to aliens” shtick. I always assumed this directly stemmed from the WH40k thing, but it sounds like it is a wider trend in scifi in general? I’d never heard of this before. It seems completely absurd for a whole bunch of reasons, like the fact that we have no idea what aliens might be like. Or that they might be so different from us that trying to say we or they are “superior” is not just comparing apples and oranges - those are both fruits from angiosperm trees! It’s more like comparing lions and petunias, only even more different. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/153 "2020-12-08T21:41:18Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But more generally, they seem obsessed with exactly what you mentioned - the whole “humans are vastly superior to aliens” shtick. I always assumed this directly stemmed from the WH40k thing, but it sounds like it is a wider trend in scifi in general? I’d never heard of this before. It seems completely absurd for a whole bunch of reasons, like the fact that we have no idea what aliens might be like. Or that they might be so different from us that trying to say we or they are “superior” is not just comparing apples and oranges - those are both fruits from angiosperm trees! It’s more like comparing lions and petunias, only even more different. John Campbell had a “Humanity is Superior” preference, which several authors complained about. William Tenn altered “Firewater” when Campbell objected to the unalloyed superiority of aliens in that story, Asimov made the Foundation universe alien-free to avoid Campbell’s issues on the subject, etc. Heinlein was somewhat immune to this issue, so stories he published with Campbell, like “Methuselah’s Children” and “Goldfish Bowl” did have superior aliens ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/154 "2020-12-08T22:08:38Z")
I had to do a bit of a double take there because there is a Dr John Campbell from England who puts out videos about COVID on YouTube which are pretty informative - but I assume you are referring to the editor of the science fiction magazine! I did read a lot of Asimov as a kid, and I knew his books were originally published in magazines, but I didn’t know much about Campbell; according to the Wikipedia article about him, he also took a liking to pseudoscience which - according to Asimov at least - is why things like “psionics” became so popular in science fiction? That’s interesting… ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/155 "2020-12-08T22:59:51Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > the subgroup is obsessed with the Empire of Man from Warhammer 40k. Again, that makes sense - the Empire of Man is basically the Holy Roman Empire in space, so if you are the sort of Alt Right moron who idolizes nazis, you probably idolize Hitler’s version of the Second Reich. And Games Workshop has their own issues with the Alt Right, as they learned recently when they made a statement in support of… I think it was BLM? And a subgroup of their fanbase shat a brick. Just picking out this bit… Games Workshop intended Warhammer 40K, and the Empire of Man in particular, as dry, darkly humorous satire. The Empire of Man is supposed to be a clearly awful, dystopian nightmare. You’re supposed to play them with a sense of ironic detachment. When you play them, you’re supposed to realize that you’re a _villain_, that the God-Emperor is a fraud, and that you’re playing as a brainwashed fascist stooge. A _lot_ of fans didn’t get the joke. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/156 "2020-12-08T23:30:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > he also took a liking to pseudoscience which - according to Asimov at least - is why things like “psionics” became so popular in science fiction? That’s interesting… He spent the 50s demanding stories to have psionics as part of the plot until writers began fleeing the magazine. And that doesn’t even get into nonsense like Dianetics or the Dean drive or other pseudoscientific rot. He was one of those people who raise contrariness into a religion. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/157 "2020-12-08T23:48:18Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > He was one of those people who raise contrariness into a religion. Yeah. He was angry about the Thalidomide incident because he felt that the US was too hasty in banning the stuff (he said that after the bad consequences were known). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2020, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/158 "2020-12-08T23:57:31Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > John Campbell had a “Humanity is Superior” preference, Campbell also had another bit of weirdness. Being a diehard smoker, even posting Editorials where he insisted it was good for you, 😱 he made many SF writers add smoking in their stories. Note Asimov, who was a dedicated anti-smoker, having many cigar scenes in Foundation. ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/159 "2020-12-09T00:17:20Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > What are these “bonus points”? What does that even mean? People like the things they like, and they vote for the things they like to win awards. What else is there? Here’s an example: Do you watch 'The Masked Singer?" Last year, in my opinion, a far less talented person won the competition vs the 2nd place finisher. The winner even mentioned something along the lines of “it’s about time a woman won” right before the judges made their decision. I believe the judges were fearful of appearing to discriminate against women so they let the gender of the competitors partially influence their decision. These are the “bonus points” I’m talking about. Yes, it’s a silly example but it’s pervasive throughout our culture that winners are not chosen solely based on who is best. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2020, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019/160 "2020-12-09T00:31:56Z")
I don’t watch “The Masked Singer”. But I take it that it’s a talent competition, and hence the judgements are entirely subjective. Isn’t it possible that the judges just, y’know, maybe, _disagreed_ with you? That’s the fundamental problem with the “Sad Puppies” and their arguments. They can’t show _any_ evidence that “bonus points” are being awarded on the basis of “political correctness” beyond their own subjective opinions of who deserves to win being different from the subjective opinions of the awards judges. I mean, it’s _possible_ that the Hugo and Nebula judges both decided it was time for a woman of color to win a major award. But how do you tell the difference between that and them just thinking that N.K. Jemison is really good writer? What is it, exactly, that makes you think that they’re awarding “PC bonus points” rather than just _liking different things than you?_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-sad-puppies-science-fiction-controversy/927019.md?page=9)