Explain the Sad Puppies (Science Fiction Controversy)

FWIW, Bujold wrote a whole essay about this question (although it kind of boils down to “wherever you want” with a few caveats).

Chances are you’ll want to read the whole Vorkosigan saga, which is arguably her greatest achievement. I recommend reading them in the order listed in the link below under " MY VORKOSIGAN SAGA READING ORDER FOR ULTIMATE ENJOYMENT (CHRONOLOGICAL, WITH A FEW TWEAKS)" (so, starting with the two “Cordelia” books, Shards of Honor and Barrayar):

Awesome, thanks! I’m reading Empire of Gold, which is a real doorstop, and then I’ve got three on hold at the library, but I’m putting these in my library list.

I think they are best read in chronological order, with the caveat that the first book in the series is not as strong as the others.

So, I’d go with

Shards of Honor
Barrayar
The Warrior’s Apprentice which introduces the main protagonist, Miles Vorkosigan.

If you aren’t feeling Shards of Honor, jump right to Barrayar, which you must read. I want to add that Aral Vorkosigan is the only book character I have ever fallen in love with. In the sense that I would have all his babies.

That’s helpful: I’m not a completionist at all, and would rather start with the best one that I can read without being lost in.

The problem with the chauvinistic male protagonist is that very often the chauvinism isn’t really there to show a character is “flawed”, it’s there to show he’s transgressive, in a badass, maverick sorta way. The reader isn’t being invited to explore the way his chauvinism is shaping his experiences and shading his understanding, they are being invited to admire the way his independent, bold approach allows him to win the day.

Stories shouldn’t be morality plays and it’s okay for a flawed character to just be who they are. But the sheer relentlessness of the trope suggests that it’s more than just how that particular character took form in a given author’s mind.

The Vorkosigan Saga is her big thing. There’s a lot of novels there, and they weren’t all written in chronological order. There’s a good timeline here

You can skip Falling Free for now. It’s a good novel, but it’s set a few hundred years before the rest of the series, and explores a culture that’s not introduced in the main series until a few books in. Start with Shards of Honor and Barrayar first - they’re short-ish novels, and are usually sold in one volume these days. They set up the universe, and explain how the series protagonist’s parents met, and some events that happened before he was born that fundamentally shape his entire life. The Warrior’s Apprentice starts Miles’ story, which is the focus of most of the rest of the novels set in that universe.

If you fantasy is more your jam right now, try The Curse of Chalion followed by Paladin of Souls, which are set in a fairly traditional low-magic milieu with a really interesting theological system. There’s a third novel set in the same universe, but not connected to the characters in the other two novels. The Hallowed Hunt, which a lot of people view as one of Bujold’s weaker novels. I like it okay, but I can see their point.

Enjoy! Just from interacting with you on this message board over the years, I think there’s a really good chance you’re about to discover one of your favorite authors.

All the Bujold fans rushing in here to make exactly the same recommendation to LHoD:

I think it adds needed dimension when assholes are called out for being assholes. My distaste for how much bullshit male characters get away with in romance novels led me to write my own. My hero does a shitty thing and pays the price - in how people view him, in his relationship to the person he injured, and in his own guilt. (And this is tangentially related because I write sci fi/fantasy.)

Yes, and I’ve lost a couple new Bujold readers to Shards of Honor and I want to scream at them “but you don’t know what you’re missiiiiiing!”

Bujold is awesome, and I don’t say that only to support a fellow Buckeye. Besides her excellent science fiction, she writes excellent “fantasy”. See The Sharing Knife. She sets a world and then focuses on characters within that world. This series doesn’t have the space-ships-and-lasers settings, but the magic of the world has well-defined rules that are followed.

I would be one of those. Tried her stuff, didn’t care for it, never bothered to return to it. Too much other stuff out there to read.

Just an “opposing” viewpoint. :wink:

Agreed. She called her Five Gods pantheon an exercise in “speculative religion”, and it’s very clever. Especially the heart of the theology: that the five gods (the Mother, the Father, the Daughter, the Son, and the Bastard) have no material power, save through the humans who open themselves to the gods, acting as their hands in the world. It’s an interesting and well-thought-out take on theism.

I would love to see a miniseries made out of the Chalion novels, but I’m afraid that the casual viewer would see it merely as a ripoff of Game of Thrones, and George R.R. Martin’s religion of the Seven. Which is of course ridiculous; thematically, the two universes are nothing alike.

This is an excellent point.

Point taken, but even the romance and Vorbretten situations have some connection with SF premises. To create a situation where someone’s suddenly discovered ancestry is causing the kind of impact it has on the Vorbrettens (loss of political position, etc.), I think Bujold needed to set the book on a different planet (it used to be that writers could have a mysterious realm in some part of the world not in contact with the rest of the world - but it’s hard to get away with that anymore). On a different level, the courtship of Miles and Ekaterin was impacted by the oversupply of men and undersupply of women on Barrayar – which is a consequence of the uterine replicator.

It’s not a hill on which I’m prepared to die. But I’d point out that in real life, right now, China has exactly the same demographic issue that Barrayar does - skewed sex ratio. And that has nothing to do with uterine replicators. And Ekaterin’s conflict has less to do with the oversupply of men than it does with the scars left by her previous marriage.

But I’d say you’re making your argument better than I’m making mine. Maybe science fiction is like Potter Stewart’s definition of porn - you know it when you see it. A Civil Campaign (as well as Captain Vorpatril’s Alliance and Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen) just don’t feel science-fiction-y to me, the way Cetaganda or Cryoburn or Diplomatic Immunity do.

Thank you. I understand your point as well (and as I think about it, Ivan is the one more hampered by the sex ratio issue). “Barrayar” (the planet) gives Bujold the opportunity to talk about the issues that China is facing with a skewed sex ratio, and the freedom to see how that works in a culture she’s created- an opportunity she wouldn’t have if she were writing straight fiction.

The stuff I have a hard time seeing as science fiction are the ones that have people who are identical to US soldiers using tactics and strategies essentially identical to those of today, with the only SF element being that they’re killing aliens or zombies, who have no particular characteristics other than being targets. But live and let live (or “Die Alien Scum”)…

Jumping in on the Bujold question because I am a huge fan. My recommendation for somebody who wants to check out her work is a little unusual. I recommend starting with The Curse of Chalion.

I know the Vorkosigan stories are generally considered Bujold’s main series. But it has a problem which others have referred to; Bujold grew as an author and the early works in the Vorkosigan series were written before she hit her full stride as an author.

But the Five Gods series doesn’t have that issue. The Curse of Chalion is both the first book written in the series and, in my opinion, the best book in the series. So you’re starting on a high note and being introduced to Bujold at her best.

You can read through the Five Gods series and then double back to the Vorkosigan books if you want more Bujold.

I have to admit, I didnt care for the Vorkosigan series, but that was likely as i only read book 1 and maybe 2. So I just ordered The Curse of Chalion , however, it sez it is “Book 1 of 3: Chalion” nothing about Five Gods.

On that note, perhaps we need to get back to the OP?

Kimstu, maybe you should have spoilered that? I haven’t read the story yet. I don’t get all that worked up about spoilers, myself, but I suspect having read that bit first is going to change the impact.