# Explain the Xian Trinity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534 "2008-11-19T21:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/21 "2008-11-20T20:38:22Z")
Not to say anyone’s _individual_ understanding of the trinity is better than anyone else’s, but if the OP is asking about the Trinity as defined in the doctrine of most Christian churches, then it is certainly not three aspects of a single person or three parts of a single object or anything like that. The Trinity is in fact not like _anything_ other than itself. That’s kind of the point. It is three persons, one substance. God _is_ the Father. God _is_ the Son. God _is_ the Holy Spirit. The Father _is not_ the Son. The Son _is not_ the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit _is not_ the Father. If you think you understand that, you probably don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/22 "2008-11-20T20:53:29Z")
The question addressed so far has been “What does the triune dogma mean, theologically?” There is also the questions of where the concept originated from, and why it is accepted by many Christian sects. I think some concept like the trinity is necessary to reconcile Jesus Christ being elevated to godhood in a monotheistic religion. The idea of the trinity seems unnecessarily complicated until you release it came about as a way to reconcile the metaphysics of Judaism (Thou shalt have only one god) and the idea of an elevated Christ. Jonathan ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/23 "2008-11-20T20:57:40Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > The question addressed so far has been “What does the triune dogma mean, theologically?” There is also the questions of where the concept originated from, and why it is accepted by many Christian sects. I think some concept like the trinity is necessary to reconcile Jesus Christ being elevated to godhood in a monotheistic religion. > > The idea of the trinity seems unnecessarily complicated until you release it came about as a way to reconcile the metaphysics of Judaism (Thou shalt have only one god) and the idea of an elevated Christ. > > Jonathan In Christian theology, Jesus was not elevated to godhood. He has existed as part of the triune godhead along with the Father and the Spirit for all eternity. “In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God.” Christ is the Word. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/24 "2008-11-20T21:08:10Z")
One of my favorite theological writers, the late David Chilton said that if you can draw a picture of your concept of the Trinity, then your picture is heretical. (I know that my pic would be Jesus, an Older Man who resembles JC & a Woman, either matronly or spritely or both- Tritheist & maybe a wee bit LDS-ish.) He added that maybe M.C. Escher could come close but he’s still be cheating. I’ll make my attempt at an analogy later- I gotta sleep now. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/25 "2008-11-20T21:11:21Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > In Christian theology, Jesus was not elevated to godhood. He has existed as part of the triune godhead along with the Father and the Spirit for all eternity. “In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God.” Christ is the Word. By elevated, I am not speaking him changing from mortal to god, I am referring to people believing he was divine. The concept Christianity hold of Jesus is not the same concept that Jews had of a Messiah. When you take a religion that says there is only one god, and then you add a second individual that is very god-like, you must come up with an explanation. The Catholic/Orthodox answer was the concept of the Trinity that is being discussed. Other Christian sects, old and new, have come with different answers. My point is that this is not something that was ever explained in the scriptures, it was something that was reasoned out by religious people later to reconcile the issue that a divine Jesus Christ presents to a religion that can allow only one god. Jonathan ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/26 "2008-11-20T21:16:00Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > By elevated, I am not speaking him changing from mortal to god, I am referring to people believing he was divine. The concept Christianity hold of Jesus is not the same concept that Jews had of a Messiah. When you take a religion that says there is only one god, and then you add a second individual that is very god-like, you must come up with an explanation. The Catholic/Orthodox answer was the concept of the Trinity that is being discussed. Other Christian sects, old and new, have come with different answers. > My point is that this is not something that was ever explained in the scriptures, it was something that was reasoned out by religious people later to reconcile the issue that a divine Jesus Christ presents to a religion that can allow only one god. > > Jonathan I apologize…I misread your original post as advocating [Adoptionism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoptionism) or _dynamic monarchianism_: > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Adoptionism is one of two main forms of monarchianism (the other is modalism, which regards “Father” and “Son” as two aspects of the same subject). Adoptionism (also known as dynamic monarchianism) denies the pre-existence of Christ and although it does not deny his deity many Trinitarians claim that it does. Under Adoptionism Jesus is currently divine and has been since his adoption, although he is not equal to the Father. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/27 "2008-11-20T21:54:39Z")
And just to add to the discussion, from what I remember from my LDS upbringing, here is the how the Mormons deal with the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate individuals. The Holy Ghost is an unborn soul that chose to serve rather then becoming mortal. The Son was originally (pre-creation) just one of the multitude of souls but was chosen to be special\* by having God as both spiritual Father (as all souls do) and physical father (making him unique). In Mormon theology Christ will rule over the souls of just this world in the next phase of creation, but God rules over all. Thus God the Father is the only God and Jesus was not a God, but a mortal given some of God’s essence on earth. Note: It has been many years since I really studied any of that and I may only remember a child’s understanding of Mormon beliefs. Jonathan \*The reason given to me as to why he was chosen was that he advocated for free will in opposition to Lucifer pre-creation. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/28 "2008-11-20T22:05:38Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > But, [do triangles exist?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=493683) Or multiple universes! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/29 "2008-11-20T22:11:29Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > One of my favorite theological writers, the late David Chilton said that if you can draw a picture of your concept of the Trinity, then your picture is heretical. (I know that my pic would be Jesus, an Older Man who resembles JC & a Woman, either matronly or spritely or both- Tritheist & maybe a wee bit LDS-ish.) He added that maybe M.C. Escher could come close but he’s still be cheating. > > I’ll make my attempt at an analogy later- I gotta sleep now. This comes close: [http://www.introspections.org/images/wave\_particle.jpg](http://www.introspections.org/images/wave_particle.jpg) (the illustration and the concept it describes, in fact) ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/30 "2008-11-20T22:55:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Thou Art God? I grok this. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/31 "2008-11-20T23:56:57Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I can give a couple metaphors, but we must understand that the metaphors are NOT God. They do not, and cannot, encompass God. They can only help you begin to understand God. > > God can be likened to water. Water can be a part of the great and mighty and mysterious ocean, with depths we men can hardly even experience, let alone fathom, and bursting with life in forms and fashions we can barely comprehend, and yet giving rise to all things, ultimately. The sea is always in motion, yet appears to always be the same. > > Jesus can be likened to the rivers which flow throughout the world. It flows out of the earth and rain and down to the sea. It brings water to deserts and wastelands alike with forests and plains. It is mighty and roaring, yet more approachable than the sea. The river, if anything, is even more in motion than the sea, yet is only the same river because it is in motion. > > The Holy Spirit is like the rain, and just as the river goes where the sea is not, it comes to everyone, everywhere, often in srange or unexpected forms (snow, etc.) > > The waters can be dangerous is we seek to sail them unprepared. They buoy us up and make up he greatest part of our being, yet we cannot glut ourselves with without harm. We are not they, but they support us and enable us to live. And of course, the waters themselves are al the same, with the same essence and being. Yet they are seperated, divided, yet interwoven and inseperable. The same, and always different at once. > > Again, understand that this is not the thing. It’s simply the best expression I can find of what the thing is like. God is not p[recisely one thing, nor is he many things, but He is one and many at once. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **ITR champion** The Trinity is difficult for beginners to comprehend because it is not analogous to anything in the physical world. Obviously among inanimate objects, nothing of this sort could be true. For instance, my chair, my left shoe, and my box of kleenex could not form a holy trinity or anything like it. > > Better analogies that give us a partial understanding of the Trinity can be found at higher levels of being. For example, with a human person, the body, the mind, and the soul can be seen as a mirror of the Holy Trinity. Hence my body is my entire person, which is to say that everything I am is within my body, and when my body ceases to exist in this world then so do I. Likewise my mind is my entire person, which is to say that everything which constitutes my self is in my mind. Likewise my soul is my entire person, which is to say that all of my true essence is in my soul. > > But, my body is not my mind or my soul or a combination of the two. My mind is not by body or my soul or a combination of the two. And my soul is not by body or my mind or a combination of the two. > > Rather, the differences between the three are distinct and well-known. Each has certain properties, abilities, and types not seen among the others. For example, when you read this post you learn some of the things that go through my mind, but you learn nothing about my body. If you were in the same room as me you could see my body, but you would not nothing about what’s going through my mind. > > So the Holy Trinity is like that. Jesus Christ contains the entirety of God, but has properties and abilities different from the Father and the Holy Spirit. Similarly the Holy Spirit contains the entirety of God, but has properties and abilities different from those of the Son and the Father. > > (Like all analogies, this one is imperfect and should not be pursued too far. If you want to learn more about the Holy Trinity, there’s no shortage of writing on the subject.) Ok, so now we have these intricate analogies, like so many before. Why is that Jesus never described himself as part of a Trinity, and why are there quite literally hundreds of texts in the OT and NT that conflict, contradict and refute the Trinity Doctrine? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/32 "2008-11-21T13:10:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Thou Art God? “If” God is existence then Yes, and so are you, A poor anology but if the ocean is made of water drops then yes, Ocean would be made up of water drops or It’s molecules. A drop of water is still water even if it were no longer in the ocean. The whole is greater than it’s parts. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/33 "2008-11-21T13:17:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Thou Art God? “If” God is existence then Yes, and so are you, A poor anology but if the ocean is made of water drops then yes, Ocean would be made up of water drops or It’s molecules. A drop of water is still water even if it were no longer in the ocean. The whole is greater than it’s parts. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/34 "2008-11-21T13:19:23Z")
Sorry for the double post. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/35 "2008-11-21T15:21:28Z")
> [@the raindog](#): > > Ok, so now we have these intricate analogies, like so many before. > > Why is that Jesus never described himself as part of a Trinity, and why are there quite literally hundreds of texts in the OT and NT that conflict, contradict and refute the Trinity Doctrine? Jesus specifically says on many occasions that he is of one nature with God the Father. “Whoever has seen the me has seen the Father” and so forth. He also makes many references to the Holy Spirit, specifically saying that “I will be with you”, by which he means that the Holy Spirit will be with us. So He did claim to be one with the Holy Spirit. As for the hundreds of texts in both testaments that conflict, contradict, or refute the Trinity Doctrine, I’m not aware of them. I’d have to know which ones you’re referring to before I can answer that. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/36 "2008-11-21T15:25:12Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As for the hundreds of texts in both testaments that conflict, contradict, or refute the Trinity Doctrine, I’m not aware of them. I’d have to know which ones you’re referring to before I can answer that. Passages like those seem to support a Oneness view rather than a trinitarian view. The Trinitarian doctrine specifically _denies_ that the father, son and holy spirit are identical. That makes it difficult to understand how the holy spirit’s being with someone can be the same as Christ himself being with that person, or how seeing Christ can be the same as seeing the Father. I don’t mean to say this is a knock-down against the Trinity, I’m just pointing out that taking those two passages by themselves will tend to confuse people about the doctrine. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/37 "2008-11-21T15:38:36Z")
The Trinitarian view is supported by Jesus addressing the Father directly. He did this at Gesthemane Luke 22:42 > [@](#): > > Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done. and at the moment of his death on the cross Luke 23:46, > [@](#): > > Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/38 "2008-11-21T16:01:51Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Passages like those seem to support a Oneness view rather than a trinitarian view. The Trinitarian doctrine specifically _denies_ that the father, son and holy spirit are identical. That makes it difficult to understand how the holy spirit’s being with someone can be the same as Christ himself being with that person, or how seeing Christ can be the same as seeing the Father. The expression of the Trinitarian Doctrine, at least in the Catholic Church and all major churches that I know of, is that God is “one nature” and “three persons”. This seems to be supported by Jesus, since he ascribes the same laws and the same desires to Himself and to God. Yet, he aslo gives different specifics. The Father is in Heaven while the Son is on earth. After Jesus ascends to Heaven, the Holy Spirit will be sent to earth. But the doctrine holds that the three parts of the Holy Trinity are identical _in nature_. There differences arise from the way that they relate to each other. This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church: > [@](#): > > The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another. In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance. Indeed everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship. So what Jesus means when he says “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father”, is that whoever has experienced the message of Jesus Christ has experienced the Father. As it happens, there have been a lot more attempts in history to deny that the three are one, than to deny that the one is three, which explains why the church typically puts more emphasis on the ‘togetherness’ aspect than the ‘apartness’ aspect. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/39 "2008-11-21T16:17:01Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Jesus specifically says on many occasions that he is of one nature with God the Father. “Whoever has seen the me has seen the Father” and so forth. Actually, Jesus says the opposite. Mark 10:18 _And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God._ > [@](#): > > He also makes many references to the Holy Spirit, specifically saying that “I will be with you”, by which he means that the Holy Spirit will be with us. So He did claim to be one with the Holy Spirit. Cite that when he said he would be with you, he actually meant the holy spirit? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534/40 "2008-11-21T16:26:28Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > Actually, Jesus says the opposite. Mark 10:18 _And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God._ Which, in light of what you quoted from ITR, could be interpreted to mean, “You realize, don’t you, that when you call me good, you’re calling me God.” ETA: You’re second thing, I cited above. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-the-xian-trinity/473534.md?page=3)