# Explain this Atheist logic to me. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589 "2009-08-25T02:42:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/41 "2009-08-25T04:48:16Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > I disagree with this. If God exists and has all of the qualities that have been attributed to it, then I think it would not really be possible to evaluate God’s actions through our own minds. > > I don’t think it’s reasonable to say that it’s strange that God does or does not do something, it is (if it exists) working on a level infinitely beyond our comprehension and it does not make sense to assign human thought processes. Then belief can’t be important. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/42 "2009-08-25T04:51:53Z")
> [@TNWPsycho](#): > > In a twisted sort of view of life, God allowing us to choose eternal damnation or bliss is Him being omnibenevolent. An omnibenevolent deity could not allow damnation to be a a possibility. It’s also not true that we have a “choice.” How can we make an informed choice if God is not willing to give us any data? How can beliefe be a choice at all? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/43 "2009-08-25T04:58:58Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > As I read **TNWPsycho** , his argument is explicitly regardless of “heaven or hell”. In other words, you can leave heaven and hell out of his argument, and his argument is not substantially changed. He is not, therefore, presenting Chriistian belief in heaven and hell as central to any understanding of religion. > > But I think he is invoking another Christian (though not exclusively) Christian concept; that of God as universal creator. In the Christian view (and many other religious views), God is the fundamental reason that anything exists. The existence of anything at all – including myself – points to the existence of God since, if there is no God, there is no reason why anything should exist Why does anything need a reason to exist? > [@](#): > > Athiests – at least of the materialist variety – find this unconvincing. The fact that we cannot identify a reason for anything to exist is not proof that nothing exists. Materialism starts from the observation that things do exist, and does not generally seek to explain why an alternative state of affairs, in which nothing would exist, does not prevail. This is not true. “Materialists” (i.e. people who don’t believe in magic) ask that question all the time > [@](#): > > Thus, for a Christian, the answer to the question “why does God not give evidence of himself” is “everything that exists – including yourself - is evidence of God, but you choose not to see that, by not interesting yourself in the question of why things exist”. This is not correct. We are very interested in that question. It’s just that there is no reason to suppose that existence requires a purpose. It’s also a question that can jsut as easily be turned back on God. Why is there a God? What is the purpose for God? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/44 "2009-08-25T05:00:33Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > An omnipotent god with perfect intelligence and wisdom may or may not decide that “making his actions known to us in a anthropomorphically-understandable manner?” is appropriate. There is simply no way to determine what that being should behave like. Sure there is. If he wants something from me, he has to make it clear what and why. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/45 "2009-08-25T05:03:36Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Living in the wide world, I do understand it’s not like the SDMB. And I do assume the argument is probably made toward someone believing in an Abrahamic-type deity. However, I would hope an atheist, who doesn’t believe in the existence of any type of deity, not just an Abrahamic one, would have a better all-encompassing argument than the one given in the OP, which presupposes just one possible (although extremely popular) model for a supernatural being. Although that particular form applies only to an Abrahamic deity, the concept that you _must_ have some justification for your beliefs for them to be worthwhile applies equally well to any belief. Even _if_ you were correct, and there really was a God, all that means is that you had a lucky guess. It does not mean that your previous stubborn refusal to question your beliefs was justified, only that you were saved from well-deserved public ridicule by a fluke. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/46 "2009-08-25T05:09:06Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Being God isn’t easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you; and if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch, like a safecracker or a pickpocket. (Or a guy who burns down a bar for the insurance money!) Yes, if you make it look like an electrical thing. When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all. What evidence is there that God has ever done anything at all? what is the discernable difference between the universe we live in and one without God? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/47 "2009-08-25T05:10:18Z")
Since several of the comments in the thread attempt to address the argument described in the OP (rather than just explaining it), I want to add my two cents to that effort. If there’s a God, the who knows why we can’t see him. It could be goblins or something, mucking with our photons. But I like the following response to the question of why God is hidden. Why do good? “That guy is very powerful and he told me to be good” is not a great reason. But if God’s existence was obvious, we’d get a lot of people trying to be good with that very motivation. Not good, and probably counterproductive to the existence of actual goodness. (This assumes selfishly motivated acts that are apparently good are generally not actually good.) So in order to have real goodness appear more often in human affairs, God hides, so that people will be good for its own sake rather than to avoid punishment or to get a reward or to be on the winning side or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![wierdaaron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eada6e/32.png) [@wierdaaron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wierdaaron)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/48 "2009-08-25T05:10:36Z")
When I was part of team jesus, I’m pretty sure I had some canned response to the OP’s question, like we did for most common atheist arguments. I can’t remember what it was, probably something about god not wanting to show off, or him wanting you to find him on your own. I understand the question better now that I’m on the other side (the side without a side). The basic idea is, why would god create an entire universe for us to play around in, make many of our lives difficult or awful, and then have the meaning to it all be that you’re supposed to figure out that he’s there? It’s cruel. If he created everything for us because he thinks we’re swell, he should come out and be like, “hey guys!” Instead, the story goes, he created a world with limitless pain and suffering just to see what we’d do. And if you follow the whole mobius strip, he always knew what we would do, so the whole damn thing is pointless. He’s just sitting up/over there, watching us hurt and die, and we’re just a re-run to him. He does this all “hoping” we find him and worship him (ego much?), but since he knows everything, he knows whether we will or not… It doesn’t compute. Basically, the idea of a benevolent creator who would set up a complicated universe and then hide doesn’t work. Thus, the original OP question. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/49 "2009-08-25T05:10:37Z")
My answer to the OP is this: If I were God, there would be no atheists . . . except for the hopelessly insane. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/50 "2009-08-25T05:15:55Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Living in the wide world, I do understand it’s not like the SDMB. And I do assume the argument is probably made toward someone believing in an Abrahamic-type deity. However, I would hope an atheist, who doesn’t believe in the existence of any type of deity, not just an Abrahamic one, would have a better all-encompassing argument than the one given in the OP, which presupposes just one possible (although extremely popular) model for a supernatural being. The all-encompassing argument is that there is no evidence nor need for a deity, and ultimately, the presumption of a thinking being who precedes the universe raises more questions than it answers. And even if there is such a being, if he doesn’t care about us, how is he any different from an alien or some other space being? Sure, he might exist, but he’s just an interesting colored fish for all that he matters to our lives. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/51 "2009-08-25T05:17:57Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Although that particular form applies only to an Abrahamic deity, the concept that you _must_ have some justification for your beliefs for them to be worthwhile applies equally well to any belief. I would assume the sorts of people who deeply believe these sorts of things do have justifications for their beliefs. I may not understand those justifications or may think them delusional or illogical, but they’re justifications just the same. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/52 "2009-08-25T05:19:36Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The all-encompassing argument is that there is no evidence nor need for a deity, and ultimately, the presumption of a thinking being who precedes the universe raises more questions than it answers. And even if there is such a being, if he doesn’t care about us, how is he any different from an alien or some other space being? Sure, he might exist, but he’s just an interesting colored fish for all that he matters to our lives. I don’t disagree there. That’s pretty much my take on things. It’s a hell of a lot better than the dubious logic in the OP’s quote, but I feel it sums up an agnostic position more than an atheistic one, given your second sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/53 "2009-08-25T05:36:14Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Why do good? “That guy is very powerful and he told me to be good” is not a great reason. I think you should ask yourself _why_ “doing good” is a good thing? The reason why doing evil is bad isn’t just because it’s not good, it’s because doing evil hurts people who don’t deserve to be hurt. The fact that you aren’t murdering small children is more important than whether you’re not murdering them because it’s the right thing to do, or if it’s because the police would catch you and throw you in a small box until you die. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/54 "2009-08-25T05:51:38Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I don’t disagree there. That’s pretty much my take on things. It’s a hell of a lot better than the dubious logic in the OP’s quote, but I feel it sums up an agnostic position more than an atheistic one, given your second sentence. I think most agnostics are atheists who think that the word means something other than what it does. An atheist doesn’t believe in a deity. That’s a different thing from saying that a deity couldn’t exist. An agnostic believes that there is probably some sort of binding _something_ in the universe, be it a deity or an all pervasive spirit, etc. He simply doesn’t believe or trust that the explanations of any known religion is the correct one. Essentially he’s a religious person without a religion. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/55 "2009-08-25T05:59:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Sure there is. If he wants something from me, he has to make it clear what and why. Why? Because you say so? Not a very strong argument. What if what it wants from you is to believe in it without any proof? Without knowing gods goals it’s pretty hard to conclude much of anything. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/56 "2009-08-25T06:01:11Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > An agnostic believes that there is probably some sort of binding _something_ in the universe, be it a deity or an all pervasive spirit, etc. He simply doesn’t believe or trust that the explanations of any known religion is the correct one. Essentially he’s a religious person without a religion. Let me note that many disagree with this statement, but it’s really the only classification that doesn’t make atheism and agnosticism largely overlap. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/57 "2009-08-25T06:01:14Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I think most agnostics are atheists who think that the word means something other than what it does. An atheist doesn’t believe in a deity. That’s a different thing from saying that a deity couldn’t exist. > > An agnostic believes that there is probably some sort of binding _something_ in the universe, be it a deity or an all pervasive spirit, etc. He simply doesn’t believe or trust that the explanations of any known religion is the correct one. Essentially he’s a religious person without a religion. Then perhaps I’ve been self-identifying incorrectly. Under your definition, I am atheist. I’ve always used the term atheist to mean a belief that there is no supernatural being (and does not give a possibility of a deity existing), and agnostic as the belief the existence or non-existence of a supernatural being is essentially unknowable. It seems Wikipedia and the dictionary give two different definitions of atheism, one akin to mine, and one akin to yours. [According to Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic), I am an apathetic agnostic. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/58 "2009-08-25T06:06:46Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > [According to Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic), I am an apathetic agnostic. Which, as I read further on, is apparently also known as “practical atheism.” So much overlap here. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/59 "2009-08-25T06:20:14Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Why? Because you say so? Not a very strong argument. It’s an airtight argument. I can’t know what he wants if he doesn’t tell me. > [@](#): > > What if what it wants from you is to believe in it without any proof? Then he’s a douchebag, and therefore can’t exist. I’ll never understand why religious people think that believing something without evidence is some kind of moral virtue. Why would a God who is good turn salvation into a guessing game? As I often like to say, requiring that people guess without evidence which one of an infinite number of possible metaphysical beliefs – all with exactly the same amount of evidence – is the correct one is like saying that the only way to get to heaven (and in some belief systems, the only way to prevent God from torturing you forever) is to guess which number he’s thinking of between zero and infinity, and you get no clues. Demanding faith without evidence is preposterous if you give it any thought at all. > [@](#): > > Without knowing gods goals it’s pretty hard to conclude much of anything. I don’t care about his goal. The point is that I can’t do what he wants if he doesn’t TELL me what he wants. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589/60 "2009-08-25T06:27:05Z")
> [@TNWPsycho](#): > > I have heard this on several occassions from a few sources, what exactly does it mean? What are they looking for? A logo? Any evidence at all would be nice. The logical default belief with claims that God or anything else exists should be disbelief. Since there’s no evidence, God should be considered imaginary. Especially since he is claimed to violate the laws of physics and generally logic. Why should I believe in God being real any more than Sauron or the Force? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-atheist-logic-to-me/507589.md?page=4)