Explain this Atheist logic to me.

[recessiveMeme]

[QUOTE=freedumb2003]
Follow the logic of this debate and much of how (or IF) God exposes Himself to His children (us) and His expectations.

There is more here than mere contradictory Christian Theology. This debate (perhaps inadvertently) deals with the nature of God (and the existence thereof).
[/quote]
Sorry, can you spell it out for me? What does the disagreement between Luther and Erasmus tell us about the nature of God?

[Snag]

@pulykamell

I’m agnostic, but I don’t exactly understand what you mean here. If there is a God (and I don’t particularly care) I don’t understand why it would necessarily make itself known. Perhaps it’s a God in the deist “watchmaker” model. Perhaps it’s a Romantic pantheistic god. Why would the existence of a God necessarily compel itself to be known? Or are we only talking God in the Judeo-Christian sense?

It seems to me that gods who want or demand to be worshiped have no reason not to make themselves as obvious as the rain or gravity. Or likewise the benevolent, omnipotent supreme beings who desire to save us from ourselves or a fate worse than death. Even if they only left obvious clues, say a statistical 20% of the time when things would happen that break the laws of nature so that we would suspect there is something grand that we are missing and know there is something besides nature plainly out there to be considered .

But we don’t see this. For all the supposed mystery of such wiser-than-wise entities, dumbing it down for us is not a stretch to comprehend. Making it clear to us on our level would be a basic requirement. Do people here talk to their 3 year olds on the level of an adult and expect adult comprehension out of them? Or expect your pet to respond at the level of a human? Of course not, and this would be obvious to any supreme beings that understand us and have our best interests at heart.

It’s a huge flaw in the argument for those kinds of gods, and not one that can be reasonably explained away. There really is no excuse. If you deeply love and want the best for someone you don’t walk away from them and hide forever if you have no reason not to be able to be there for them in the flesh. Or if not flesh, a reasonable facsimile thereof fit for a supreme being.

[Triskadecamus]

@monavis

I heard that Christianity is the most divided of all religions mainly because they translate the Bible to fit their own beliefs.

I might mention the various wars fought between factions of other religions, and we could do a statistical rant on the results. Most religions begin as sects of established religions, and sectarianism is always more common among societies in stress. Stress causes, or exacerbates all types of particularism, religious or others.

Yes, religious fanaticism is a vicious thing. The flavor of the religion makes little difference.

Tris

[gonzomax]

@wierdaaron

When I was part of team jesus, I’m pretty sure I had some canned response to the OP’s question, like we did for most common atheist arguments. I can’t remember what it was, probably something about god not wanting to show off, or him wanting you to find him on your own.

I understand the question better now that I’m on the other side (the side without a side). The basic idea is, why would god create an entire universe for us to play around in, make many of our lives difficult or awful, and then have the meaning to it all be that you’re supposed to figure out that he’s there? It’s cruel. If he created everything for us because he thinks we’re swell, he should come out and be like, “hey guys!” Instead, the story goes, he created a world with limitless pain and suffering just to see what we’d do. And if you follow the whole mobius strip, he always knew what we would do, so the whole damn thing is pointless. He’s just sitting up/over there, watching us hurt and die, and we’re just a re-run to him. He does this all “hoping” we find him and worship him (ego much?), but since he knows everything, he knows whether we will or not… It doesn’t compute.

Basically, the idea of a benevolent creator who would set up a complicated universe and then hide doesn’t work. Thus, the original OP question.

We are stuck with a couple options. God does not exist is one. the other is that god is a sadistic prick who loves to tear the legs off spiders and little creatures to see what they will do. If he could do all, why would he have children be born with cancer or with birth defects. He could end that if he existed. But he has been allowing this to go on for centuries. If he exists, he is not nice. He is cruel and petty.