# Explain this headstone to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 30, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791 "2009-07-30T17:18:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/21 "2014-07-12T02:48:39Z")
> [@lynndavis](#): > > I was walking at the Crystal lake Cemetery and a grave marker caught my eye as it had so much writing on it: > > The Censored Marker of > ROBERTA J. LUKANEN > Can be viewed at > MOUND CEMETERY > 69th Avenue North at Palmer Lake Drive > Brooklyn Center, Minn. > Section 3 Block 18 Lot 1 Grave 2 > > I will be checking this out. More to come. Google now reports a DOD in various databases. > **[Lukanen's Obituary on GenealogyBank.com](https://www.genealogybank.com/doc/ssdi/news/12DC28B0EE488E78)** > > View the obituary now at GenealogyBank. | [http://death-records.findthebest.com/l/158650831/Roberta-Jean-Lukanen](http://death-records.findthebest.com/l/158650831/Roberta-Jean-Lukanen) ---
**Author:** ![buckgully](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb9ed0/32.png) [@buckgully](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buckgully)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/22 "2014-07-12T03:06:42Z")
This is beautifully weird. So it’s the headstone that was ritually mutilated, not the person? And instead of just chiseling something out, they actually chiseled in ‘ritually mutilated’? Perhaps they were dictating? I wasn’t able to find Roberta, but I did find Charles Angel on [findagrave.com](http://findagrave.com): [Charles Angel (1848-1882) - Find a Grave Memorial](http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Angel&GSfn=Charles&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSst=11&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=54706158&df=all&) ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2014, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/23 "2014-07-12T03:24:40Z")
According to Mundia (free at the moment, soon to go commercial as part of [Ancestry.com](http://Ancestry.com)) Her parents where Oscar Edwin Lukanen, and Mildred Sigrid Mattson . Other Lukanen people just look caucasian, and I found a few that emigrated from Germany (to Australia.) I thought perhaps the Pitkaaho surname was African… no its Finnish. Mildred Mattson’s parents born in Finland - Anna Greta Kreita Pitkaaho emigrated to Minnesota with Charles Mattson. “Father, Charles (Sulasalmi) Mattson, born in Kuusamo, Finland and her mother, Anna Greta (Pitkaaho) Mattson, born in Pulkila Oulun Laani, Finland, worked the family farm in New York Mills, MN. Mary Ann was preceded in death by her husband, Arnold Carl, her 13 siblings, Alden, Edna, Edward, Emil, Fred, Lillian, Mary, Martha, Mildred _Our subject_, Sarah, Sophia, Walfred, Wilma and her parents” Sulasalmi is just a Finnish surname. ---
**Author:** ![Karen\_Lingel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karen_lingel/32/18649_2.png) [@Karen\_Lingel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karen_Lingel)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/24 "2014-07-15T00:26:42Z")
Sounds kinda like an art installation – gravestones with cryptic messages in cemeteries all over town. Sounds like something an artist would do. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/25 "2014-07-15T00:58:38Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > I was at the cemetary today and was wandering around some of the new gravesites and headstones and ran across this odd one and have no idea what it means: > > * * * > > ``` > Roberta J Lukanen > -STILL- > RITUALLY > MUTILATED > > ``` > > July 19, 1945 - > > * * * > > Looks like she hasn’t passed away yet but got the headstone ahead of time. > I know about the controversial female ritual mutilations in other countries and maybe she was affected by this but it seems a very odd thing (and the only thing) to put on a headstone. > > Any insight? I think it means a still born child was also buried in the plot, in addition to Ms. Lukanen eventual occupancy. There is a tradition is Judiasm to circumcise a Jewish male post-mortem if he hadn’t already. The child may have been Jewish, and the stone specifies this for the record. (“Ritually mutilated” seems to be common phrase in Europe but not in the United States - [Beliefnet](http://community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/59723/29264429/Should_infants_be_ritually_mutilated) - I haven’t really heard of the term before today) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/26 "2014-07-15T01:48:45Z")
Is “ritually mutilated” a term that would be used by a practicing Jew, though? While it might be accurate in denotation, the word “mutilation” has strong negative connotations, that I doubt a person would use for their own religion’s practices. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/27 "2014-07-15T02:00:58Z")
> [@lynndavis](#): > > I was walking at the Crystal lake Cemetery and a grave marker caught my eye as it had so much writing on it: > > The Censored Marker of > ROBERTA J. LUKANEN > Can be viewed at > MOUND CEMETERY > 69th Avenue North at Palmer Lake Drive > Brooklyn Center, Minn. > Section 3 Block 18 Lot 1 Grave 2 > > I will be checking this out. More to come. I wonder if this other marker (at Mound Cemetery) is the one described in the OP, or a third one. According to his profile, **Hampshire** ’s last activity was today so he’s still around, maybe he can tell us. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/28 "2014-07-15T02:16:38Z")
Yes, the one the Crystal Lake cemetary refers to (Mound Cemetary) is the one I originally saw in the OP. I haven’t looked at it since I wrote the OP back in 2009 so I went back there today (it’s a few blocks from where I work). The only addition to the marker is that it now has the date of passing, Feb. 2, 2010. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/29 "2014-07-15T02:40:21Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > I think it means a still born child was also buried in the plot, in addition to Ms. Lukanen eventual occupancy. There is a tradition is Judiasm to circumcise a Jewish male post-mortem if he hadn’t already. The child may have been Jewish, and the stone specifies this for the record. > > (“Ritually mutilated” seems to be common phrase in Europe but not in the United States - [Beliefnet](http://community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/59723/29264429/Should_infants_be_ritually_mutilated) - I haven’t really heard of the term before today) This explanation would seem to make sense, except for that other headstone referencing this one. That adds a whole new level of weirdness to it. ---
**Author:** ![Soylent\_Juicy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@Soylent\_Juicy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soylent_Juicy)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/30 "2014-07-15T13:43:49Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Yes, the one the Crystal Lake cemetary refers to (Mound Cemetary) is the one I originally saw in the OP. I haven’t looked at it since I wrote the OP back in 2009 so I went back there today (it’s a few blocks from where I work). The only addition to the marker is that\*\* it now has the date of passing, Feb. 2, 2010\*\*. (Bolding mine.) That’s kind of…melancholy. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/31 "2014-07-15T13:58:44Z")
> [@buckgully](#): > > This is beautifully weird. > > So it’s the headstone that was ritually mutilated, not the person? And instead of just chiseling something out, they actually chiseled in ‘ritually mutilated’? Perhaps they were dictating?.. [Christ Church Episcopal in Alexandria, Virginia](http://www.historicchristchurch.org/) has some gravestones that were defaced by the US Army during the Civil War. Specifically, apparently bored occupying soldiers added '1’s to ages at death, so instead of saying e.g. “John Williams born 1780 died age 63”, it now says “John Williams born 1780 died age 163”. I asked a priest why they didn’t repair the graves, and they said that what was already done was history, and that anyone who is curious can walk in and ask what is up with the graves. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/32 "2014-07-15T14:15:01Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > I think it means a still born child was also buried in the plot, in addition to Ms. Lukanen eventual occupancy. There is a tradition is Judiasm to circumcise a Jewish male post-mortem if he hadn’t already. The child may have been Jewish, and the stone specifies this for the record. If there was a still born baby in that plot then it was either transfered there from some other site or maybe some kind of urn. The gravesite w/marker was brand new as of 2009 and Roberta would have been 54 at the time. The only other info I could find about her was that she was a ham radio operator. [FCC license](http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/license.jsp?licKey=873165) ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/33 "2014-07-15T16:51:28Z")
I’m guessing crazy person. More likely than artist or activist, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/34 "2014-07-15T17:56:47Z")
[This book](http://books.google.com/books?id=lWejAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&dq=clitoridectomy+treat+hysteria,+erotomania+and+lesbianism&source=bl&ots=lziMdBKnCy&sig=yjhfYG_t_J9mZO2Myg6CZv3FJCw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=n2nFU83MBs_nsATBvoLwBQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false) says clitoridectomies were performed by gynecologists into the 1960s to treat hysteria, erotomania and lesbianism. Maybe she she went through a period of rebellion in 1945 and some quack told her parents that this procedure would calm her down? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/35 "2014-07-15T17:59:37Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > [This book](http://books.google.com/books?id=lWejAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&dq=clitoridectomy+treat+hysteria,+erotomania+and+lesbianism&source=bl&ots=lziMdBKnCy&sig=yjhfYG_t_J9mZO2Myg6CZv3FJCw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=n2nFU83MBs_nsATBvoLwBQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false) says clitoridectomies were performed by gynecologists into the 1960s to treat hysteria, erotomania and lesbianism. Maybe she she went through a period of rebellion in 1945 and some quack told her parents that this procedure would calm her down? That would explain the “mutilated.” What about “ritually”? Come to think of it, what about “still”? ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/36 "2014-07-15T18:18:15Z")
Is it possible that this is some kind of reference to satanic ritual abuse? Is this a person with recovered [false] memories she still believes to be true, who was denied her day in court, or possibly took her “abuser” to civil court and lost, and still has a grudge? I know it would make more sense for the stone to say “ritually abused,” but if she has any kind scar that she attributes to the abuse, she might use the term “mutilated,” because, you know, more loaded word. Or maybe she means emotionally mutilated. People in the recovered memory camp can get pretty worked up. I don’t think -still- means a stillborn baby, because babies that were stillborn, or died very soon after birth, and not named, usually have markers that say “infant.” I used to like poking around old cemeteries, and I’ve seen a sadly high number of “infant” stones, but never one “still,” “stillborn,” or anything like that. > [@GilaB](#): > > The idea that Jews with tattoos can’t be buried in Jewish cemeteries is a myth. (Tattoos aren’t permitted by Jewish law, but that has nothing to do with ritual uncleanliness, and anyway, ritual uncleanliness is mostly irrelevant since the destruction of the Temple two millenia ago.) Also, in Jewish law, one is not held responsible for acts committed against one’s will, like being tattooed by Nazis. Having a tattoo forced on you against your will is not the same thing as acquiring one willingly. It’s the same difference as having a scar from an accident or surgery, and having decorative, or ritual scarring. Even if a particular Jewish cemetery did have a policy against not burying people with voluntary tattoos, it would not deny burial to a camp survivor. The only reason I can think that a cemetery might have that rule is that some red inks for tattoos contain iron oxide, anyway, and I don’t think the Germans used that. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/37 "2014-07-15T18:47:54Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > The only reason I can think that a cemetery might have that rule is that some red inks for tattoos contain iron oxide, anyway, and I don’t think the Germans used that. How about ignorance of halacha? (i.e. the cemetery administrators believe that someone tattooed cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetery.) Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/38 "2014-07-15T19:00:34Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > How about ignorance of halacha? (i.e. the cemetery administrators believe that someone tattooed cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetery.) > > Zev Steinhardt Sure, that. I’ve met synagogue presidents, and even one rabbi, who were ignorant of this. Why not the cemetery administrator? I did have someone actually say that it depended whether an iron based ink was used-- you know, coffin can’t have metal nail, so your tattoo can’t have metal ink-- this, despite the fact that I’ve never heard of a chevra kaddisha pulling teeth with amalgam fillings. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/39 "2014-07-15T19:04:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Is “ritually mutilated” a term that would be used by a practicing Jew, though? While it might be accurate in denotation, the word “mutilation” has strong negative connotations, that I doubt a person would use for their own religion’s practices. But if the child rejected the religion or the practices of the parent, then I can easily see the child using those words. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/40 "2014-07-15T19:18:36Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > But if the child rejected the religion or the practices of the parent, then I can easily see the child using those words. It’s a woman’s stone, so I doubt it has anything to do with Jewish circumcision. What was proposed was that the woman whose name is on the stone gave birth to a stillborn boy, and had him circumcised, then described it as “ritually mutilated” on the stone. That seems unlikely. I’m starting to lean toward performance art or viral advertising. If so, and it has anything to do with female genital mutilation, it’s already better than the [screaming Venus cake](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=728209). If there’s any doubt a cemetery would allow this, [a cemetery let Penn and Teller put up an “Is this your card?” headstone](http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?GRid=3660&page=gr). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791.md?page=3)