# Explain this headstone to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 30, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791 "2009-07-30T17:18:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/61 "2014-07-16T16:04:24Z")
In America, it’s quite common to erect a headstone before you die (especially if you are part of a couple) and list only your date of birth. A lot of the people who do this are trying to plan their estate in advance so that their loved ones don’t have to do it while they are grieving, not incur all the costs associated with their passing. ---
**Author:** ![lynndavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@lynndavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynndavis)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/62 "2014-07-16T17:16:22Z")
I am going to ask the cemetery caretaker at the Crystal Lake Cemetery as soon as have chance. I live just across the street. No explanation offered yet seems plausible. I can’t find any record of an obit. I will post my findings. Thanks for all of your interest. L ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/63 "2014-07-16T17:42:02Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Maybe the marker referencing the grave at Mound Cemetery was placed there because she couldn’t be buried in Crystal Lake with her family for some reason (she was “censored”). Well, one reason you might not get buried where you’d planned, is if you die suddenly (or in an accident) while you are out of state (say, on vacation), and you have some kind of advance directive against being embalmed, being embalmed is counter to your religious practices, or your family decides against it-- maybe your body is badly mangled in an accident, and embalming is difficult (therefore, expensive), or impossible. I’m pretty sure there are laws in most states that you can’t bring an unembalmed body in for burial. There may be exceptions, if the actual travel distance is short, or maybe some states allow it, but I’m pretty sure that there’s a rule against flying unembalmed bodies, so you’d have to transfer over the road (or maybe by train). Some issue regarding embalming doesn’t answer the original question about the odd inscription, but in could explain why she wasn’t buried in the one location where the other Lukanens are buried-- and I can see someone who believes she was ritually mutilated or abused not wanting to be embalmed after death. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/64 "2014-07-16T18:42:46Z")
I did a google search for Roberta J Lukanen and found this: [http://www.advancedbackgroundchecks.com/d/roberta-lukanen/419686167](http://www.advancedbackgroundchecks.com/d/roberta-lukanen/419686167) It sounds spammy, but it looks legit with an address, age, and phone number (just don’t press the button to order a background report). The part that rings a bell regarding potential mutilation, to me, is this:\* Also known as:\*\* Robert E Lukanen\* Based on that, I’m wondering if it could be a transgender issue. Or, maybe Roberta was born intersexed and was surgically altered into a girl. Or maybe the website is just wrong, but it’s a jumping-off point. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/65 "2014-07-16T19:06:19Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Based on that, I’m wondering if it could be a transgender issue. Or, maybe Roberta was born intersexed and was surgically altered into a girl. Or maybe the website is just wrong, but it’s a jumping-off point. That would make sense, because 1945 is the right year for that. Pretty much from the time such surgery could be done safely, until about 1990, when people who had had it done to them as children, began to speak out as adults, standard treatment for babies born with ambiguous genitalia was to alter them to make them “girls,” regardless of whether they had a uterus, or undescended testes. It was just too difficult to surgically construct a penis, and the common wisdom was that a penisless boy (or even one with micropenis or deformed penis) in a locker room would have too much social difficulty. If the child didn’t have ovaries, then “she” started taking hormones at puberty. It still makes the word “ritual” a little odd, but I suppose it’s fewer letters than “in service to social mores,” and engravers probably charge by the letter. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/66 "2014-07-16T19:21:18Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > It still makes the word “ritual” a little odd, but I suppose it’s fewer letters than “in service to social mores,” and engravers probably charge by the letter. If that’s the case, maybe the use of “ritual” is because for most of her life, she considered it still done more often than not. Which, of course, I do believe was your point. Heh. ---
**Author:** ![Ignotus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecc23a/32.png) [@Ignotus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignotus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/67 "2014-07-16T20:16:20Z")
faithfool In America, it’s quite common to erect a headstone before you die (especially if you are part of a couple) and list only your date of birth. A lot of the people who do this are trying to plan their estate in advance so that their loved ones don’t have to do it while they are grieving, not incur all the costs associated with their passing. Thank you, ignorance fought! How different we are. Now, we have to construct a coherent story to cover all known facts with this kept in our minds. That might not be so easy. Ideas? Originally Posted by Rachellelogram Based on that, I’m wondering if it could be a transgender issue. Or, maybe Roberta was born intersexed and was surgically altered into a girl. Or maybe the website is just wrong, but it’s a jumping-off point. Yes, it would totally fit the bill - as would, I suppose, lobotomy and forced sterilization. Only, they fail to explain the second marker. Why was her(/his?) tombstone moved - or, at least, not raised in its original, intended place? And why did the cemetery management feel a need to point out this change? ---
**Author:** ![Labdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Labdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labdad)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/68 "2014-07-16T20:24:38Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > …but have you actually, ever, seen an erected gravestone with the name (and possibly date of birth) of a still living person? slight highjack - I had a cousin who not only erected her gravestone while she was still living, she put the future date of her death on it. And this future date indicated she lived to be _ **139!!!** _. She was rather eccentric, to say the least. When she did in fact die, we asked her daughter if she was going to change the date to reflect the actual date of death. She said, no - having her mom’s death date some fifty years in the future was rather sweet. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2014, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/69 "2014-07-16T22:23:09Z")
Back when the AIDS Memorial Quilt was quite an active project in the early 1990’s, I saw a number of Asian panels (possibly made by people to commemorate themselves) that provided a date of death as “20–”, suggesting the aspiration of/symbolic magic associated with living at least 10 more years. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/70 "2014-07-17T00:47:21Z")
Thinking about this more, it seems like a compromise to some sort of legal dispute. “You can’t be buried in our cemetery, but we’ll acknowledge, and direct people to, your grave in this other local cemetery”. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/71 "2014-07-17T02:30:51Z")
> [@jnglmassiv](#): > > This really defies belief. > Actually, I think it is more like unbelievable. > Inconceivable, even. > > A **female** ham radio operator? > Get out. > [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Also known as:\* > Robert E Lukanen\* I think we solved the mystery. There could never be a female Ham radio operator. jnglmassiv figured it out and didn’t even know it. Roberta was evidently genitally mutilated due to some intersex issue, and lived part of her life as Robert, a ham radio operator, and died Roberta, still ritually mutilated. Interesting mystery. Hopefully we get confirmation from resident dopers of the area. ---
**Author:** ![48Willys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/db5fbb/32.png) [@48Willys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/48Willys)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/72 "2014-07-17T03:55:53Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > I think we solved the mystery.\*\* There could never be a female Ham radio operator\*\*. jnglmassiv figured it out and didn’t even know it. Roberta was evidently genitally mutilated due to some intersex issue, and lived part of her life as Robert, a ham radio operator, and died Roberta, still ritually mutilated. Interesting mystery. Hopefully we get confirmation from resident dopers of the area. Bolding & underlining mine. Well, my big sister had a Ham license from 1972 until she died in 2001. She would be surprised to know this. As would my cousin who has had hers for over 45 years. I know, I know, You are just kidding!! Back to the original issue. What is up with Roberta’s headstone? Why does not someone call the folks who are running either of the graveyards? This oddity should be different enough that the entire staff there should know the story!! I bet that the groundskeeper knows the story. Go back and look for him/her. They will be the one on the tractor. C’mon here folks. Hmmmm, I wonder how late they staff the phones? Do they have a message board or some such? This can not be that hard. This isn’t rocket science! I am blown away that someone saw the headstone six years ago and did not inquire about it. I would have been so curious that I would have had to call her or the “powers that be”. The worst that could happen is that she gets mad at you. If she were ashamed of whatever “Ritualistic Mutational” is, she would not have put it on her headstone. The “Still” really has my curiosity peaked. Like I tell my boys & grand kids, if you do not ask, you will not get what you want. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/73 "2014-07-17T13:55:53Z")
> [@48Willys](#): > > Back to the original issue. What is up with Roberta’s headstone? Why does not someone call the folks who are running either of the graveyards? This oddity should be different enough that the entire staff there should know the story!! I bet that the groundskeeper knows the story. Go back and look for him/her. They will be the one on the tractor. C’mon here folks. I nominate you to call. All in favor?.. motion carries by acclamation! Here’s the info: > [@lynndavis](#): > > I was walking at the Crystal lake Cemetery and a grave marker caught my eye as it had so much writing on it: > > The Censored Marker of > ROBERTA J. LUKANEN > Can be viewed at > MOUND CEMETERY > 69th Avenue North at Palmer Lake Drive > Brooklyn Center, Minn. > Section 3 Block 18 Lot 1 Grave 2 ---
**Author:** ![48Willys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/db5fbb/32.png) [@48Willys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/48Willys)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/74 "2014-07-17T18:26:01Z")
OK, Here is the Straight Dope! I talked to a representative of Mound Cemetery. I was told that she had indeed been born intersexed . According to the custom at the time she was surgically made into a female. In her lifetime this “Ritualistic Mutilation” upset her terribly. She wanted to tell the world about this, to her and many others, Barbaric custom. Thus, she wanted her headstone to relay this information. The “Still” means that the mutilation can not be reversed and she is still mutated. I suspect, but do not know, that since still is shorter then forever, Still was used on the headstone. The representative I talked to said that she was a wonderful person and a pleasure to talk to. They were happy to comply with her wishes as to her headstone. The other cemetery, where many of her family are buried, refused to have this headstone in their facility. Thus, the “Censored”. They did agree to put the plaque directing folks to her actual resting place on what would have been her grave. This was agreeable to Roberta and it was done. Editorial; To me this seems like an excellent solution to a difficult situation. Bravo to the folks at Mounds Cemetary! Good work folks! If I had to choose a cemetary in that area, they would be the ones! I do beleive that the other cemetary is within its rights to refuse to have this headstone in their facility. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/75 "2014-07-17T18:46:30Z")
Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/76 "2014-07-17T18:46:57Z")
Thanks, **48Willys**. Great work! ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/77 "2014-07-17T18:48:27Z")
Props to **48Willys** for making the phone call to solve this mystery. I was intrigued and stumped. It’s a shame the Crystal Lake cementary refused to let her have the headstone she wanted. > [@Isilder](#): > > Perhaps she is labelling infant genital “correction” as erroneous as “genital mutilation” and thus uses the most severe label. And props to **Isilder** for being the first to guess the right answer. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/78 "2014-07-17T18:54:14Z")
Excellent work, **48Willys** , and I second the nod to **Isilder**. It’s awesome when a mystery is solved. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/79 "2014-07-17T19:06:26Z")
To late to add: Going back over the thread, I see that **Rachel** mentioned the possibility of her being intersexed too. Very good. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/80 "2014-07-17T22:09:10Z")
Excellent work, **48Willys**! BTW, that was a test, which you passed with flying colors. For your next assignment . . . 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791.md?page=5)