# Explain this headstone to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 30, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791 "2009-07-30T17:18:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/81 "2014-07-18T00:36:26Z")
Another great example of the Dope being able to solve any mystery, no matter how old. This a 5 year old thread! The person hadn’t even died when it was started. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/82 "2014-07-18T03:10:03Z")
> [@Ignotus](#): > > runningdude > … > I am aware of the existence of family graves, where names, dates of birth and dates of death get subsequently added for each passing of a family member, but **have you actually, ever, seen an erected gravestone with the name (and possibly date of birth) of a still living person?** > … Yes. It is so common that I am actually surprised to learn that it is vanishingly rare elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/83 "2014-07-18T03:18:19Z")
I thought for sure this would be some routine, albeit rare marker. What a tragic tale. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/84 "2014-07-18T03:24:15Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > Yes. It is so common that I am actually surprised to learn that it is vanishingly rare elsewhere. Yeah, not unusual here, either. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/85 "2014-07-18T04:59:50Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > In America, it’s quite common to erect a headstone before you die (especially if you are part of a couple) and list only your date of birth. A lot of the people who do this are trying to plan their estate in advance so that their loved ones don’t have to do it while they are grieving, not incur all the costs associated with their passing. Yup, I know widows who have done this: set up a headstone for themselves (with a blank date of death, to be filled in later) when they set up the one for their husband. Killing two stones with one buried, so to speak. However, I think **Ignotus** is correct that even here in the US, it would be seen as rather insulting and/or threatening to put up a “placeholder” marker for a living person except at his/her own instigation. This was a fascinating story! Good work. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/86 "2014-07-18T15:06:45Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yeah, not unusual here, either. In Judaism, markers are put up on the first anniversary of the death, to mark the end of the formal mourning period, but it’s still not unusual for people to purchase plots ahead of time. I volunteered some time in our synagogue office, and pretty much every retired couple who were pretty sure they weren’t going anywhere else, had a plot purchased. People want to spare their families the expense, and people whose families may not be as observant want to make sure they are buried in a Jewish cemetery. For all I know, some people may have their markers paid for, just not placed until the end of the first year of mourning. I saw a kind of sad marker once where a women had died around the age of 18, and was buried with a large headstone, with her name and birth and death dates; on either side of her were two names of people who I assumed were her parents-- they were about 30 years older, and had the same last name. Neither had a death date yet. ---
**Author:** ![staili](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c57346/32.png) [@staili](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/staili)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/87 "2014-07-18T15:55:22Z")
Stones with names and birthdates of living people aren’t that unusual in the US. Because of natural variation in stone color, if you want stones to match, you should buy them all at the same time so they are quarried together. Or if you know what you want, you might as well buy it while you’re still alive. And I believe that the engraving is often slightly cheaper if you have it done before the stone gets put up than after it’s in the foundation, because in the latter case, they have to send someone out to the cemetery to do it. The pre-engraving may also be cheaper through a kind of package deal when you buy the headstone. ---
**Author:** ![lynndavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@lynndavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynndavis)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/88 "2014-07-18T22:53:28Z")
Okay here is the story… I went to the Crystal Lake Cemetery this afternoon and asked for the Caretaker. His name is Ray G. I told him how I had found the marker etc etc. She nodded his head yes, he knew what I was talking about and knew the story…then he got a phone call which seemed to last forever… He said that this was before his time…and he was told…but doesn’t recall any exact names…this person (Roberta) was born a man and went through a sex change operation (perhaps more than one) that was botched quite badly. The plot was purchased before his/her death and the marker that they wanted had (too much) information about the procedure and outcome and the Crystal Lake Cemetery did not approve. They did get by with the reference to the other marker, that is now in the Mound Cemetery. He didn’t know where the body is actually buried; he said he’d have to look it up. I guess he/she had an agenda to advertise the mutilation…this is still very odd and disturbing. It is like engraving on a murder victim’s gravestone: “chopped to bits by an axe murderer.” I’m not sure this is the whole story…what does “STILL” mean? And what was the “ritual?” I’ve never heard of an operation referred to as a ritual… My next stop is the Mound Cemetery to talk to the caretaker there, unless Hampshire beats me to it. I still haven’t been able to find any other info on Roberta or Robert. I would think if he/she wanted to memorialize this tragedy there would have been something in the press. I’ll keep you posted. ---
**Author:** ![lynndavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@lynndavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynndavis)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/89 "2014-07-18T23:05:26Z")
Thanks 48 Willys. Great story. Lynn ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/90 "2014-07-19T00:21:40Z")
Since the person was known as Robert at some point, perhaps “still” means something like “even after phalloplastic reconstruction,” i.e., “I can’t be put back as I once was.” As an infant, [David Reimer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Reimer) was reassigned as a girl, but never felt like a girl, and when he found out he had been a boy, had his gender medically and socially assigned back. However, this sort of reversal is generally experiences as inadequate. He was a very troubled person and committed suicide in his late 30’s. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/91 "2014-07-19T00:57:56Z")
> [@susan](#): > > David Reimer was reassigned as a girl, but never felt like a girl, and when he found out he had been a boy, had his gender medically and socially assigned back. David Reimer was genuinely mutilated. As a toddler, he had a condition that caused foreskin infections, and his pediatrician recommended circumcision. A urologist who apparently wasn’t experienced with circumcising children used an electrocautery device intended for use on adults, who sometimes had a lot of bleeding with scalpel circumcisions. It was like using a blow torch to light a cigarette. It may be that R. Lukanen-- I’ll use the female pronoun, since that’s what’s on the stone-- was surgically altered as a baby or small child, and disagreed with her assigned gender. But usually intersexed babies, or those with ambiguous genitalia are assigned as girls, the difficulty of making a penis and all. If she was assigned male, and then wished to be female-- well, that’s pretty unusual. It can happen, though, but from what I understand, most doctors don’t consider it ethical. What happens is that a girl is born with a masculinizing condition, so that their gender at birth looks male. They even have their ureter going through their enlarged clitoris. They may or may not have a vaginal opening. If they don’t, the condition may not be discovered right away. Back in the 1940s & 50s, it’s remotely possible a girl might live as a boy for several years before an x-ray taken for some other reason reveals a uterus. So, if that happens, doctors would then do essentially, vulvaplasty-- there’d be an occult vagina, probably, and move the ureter, the hope would be without destroying clitoral sensitivity, but I dunno, 1950s? However, some parents might want to “keep” the son they were used to, and insist on a hysterectomy instead. Like I said, I think most doctors wouldn’t do it, but some might. I have a vague recollection of reading about a case in the 1960s where some parents shopped their daughter around, looking for a doctor to do a hysterectomy when they found out she wasn’t a boy. IIRC, the resolution was that they finally accepted that she was a girl, and did the vulvaplasty, but they moved to another city, where no one knew they used to have a boy. Just a little extraneous info while we wait for the people with the connections to get the Straight Dope. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/92 "2014-07-19T01:15:18Z")
Thanks for the update, very interesting story. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/93 "2014-07-22T23:30:08Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yeah, not unusual here, either. I had assumed this was so a universal a practice in the United States, that Ignotus must have been foreign. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/94 "2014-07-23T03:00:37Z")
> [@lynndavis](#): > > Okay here is the story… > I went to the Crystal Lake Cemetery this afternoon and asked for the Caretaker. His name is Ray G. I told him how I had found the marker etc etc. She nodded his head yes, he knew what I was talking about and knew the story…then he got a phone call which seemed to last forever… > He said that this was before his time…and he was told…but doesn’t recall any exact names…this person (Roberta) was born a man and went through a sex change operation (perhaps more than one) that was botched quite badly. The plot was purchased before his/her death and the marker that they wanted had (too much) information about the procedure and outcome and the Crystal Lake Cemetery did not approve. They did get by with the reference to the other marker, that is now in the Mound Cemetery. He didn’t know where the body is actually buried; he said he’d have to look it up. > I guess he/she had an agenda to advertise the mutilation…this is still very odd and disturbing. It is like engraving on a murder victim’s gravestone: “chopped to bits by an axe murderer.” > I’m not sure this is the whole story… **what does “STILL” mean**? And what was the “ritual?” I’ve never heard of an operation referred to as a ritual… > My next stop is the Mound Cemetery to talk to the caretaker there, unless Hampshire beats me to it. I still haven’t been able to find any other info on Roberta or Robert. I would think if he/she wanted to memorialize this tragedy there would have been something in the press. > I’ll keep you posted. Perhaps, and I’m just spitballin’ here, the deceased harbored a religious belief that upon entry to Heaven, his body would be restored to what his Creator originally intended. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/95 "2014-07-23T18:13:27Z")
The SDMB at its finest. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/96 "2014-07-25T23:03:20Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > David Reimer was genuinely mutilated. As a toddler, he had a condition that caused foreskin infections, and his pediatrician recommended circumcision. A urologist who apparently wasn’t experienced with circumcising children used an electrocautery device intended for use on adults, who sometimes had a lot of bleeding with scalpel circumcisions. It was like using a blow torch to light a cigarette. Ah, so that’s what that Law&Order:SVU was based on. [Quote=Kimstu] Killing two stones with one buried, so to speak. [/quote] Heh. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/97 "2014-07-25T23:48:35Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Ah, so that’s what that Law&Order:SVU was based on. Yeah. I don’t think that happened twice. And the Reimer case was in the late 1960s. That episode was kind of stupid, because the age those twins were, I don’t think that boy would have been “corrected” like that, because since about 1990, intersexed people, and people who had ambiguous genitalia at birth and are now adults, have been coming forward and saying that such babies shouldn’t be corrected at birth; that such decisions should be left to the individual when he or she decides what gender feels right, and if any surgery is even necessary, because a lot of people feel they were mis-assigned, while others feel that surgery is never really adequate, and the appearance doesn’t make up for any loss of sensation that may have gone with the surgery. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/98 "2014-07-26T18:23:07Z")
Nominating this thread for Theadspotting. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/99 "2014-07-28T04:17:35Z")
I just would like to note the irony of the fact that this mystery, which turned out to be all about the removal of a penis, was eventually solved by **48Willys**! ---
**Author:** ![48Willys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/db5fbb/32.png) [@48Willys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/48Willys)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791/100 "2014-07-28T07:56:07Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I just would like to note the irony of the fact that this mystery, which turned out to be all about the removal of a penis, was eventually solved by **48Willys**! Irony? I guess that I am just dense today! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-headstone-to-me/504791.md?page=6)