# Explain this logic to me **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 24, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813 "2013-06-24T19:29:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/1 "2013-06-24T19:29:22Z")
As a teacher, when we start work in a new district we get credit for (some of ) the number of years we have taught. I have 16 years of experience which mean in 2010 I had 13 years. The new school district I am working for allows up to 10 years (steps) of credit but there has been a freeze on teacher advancement for 3 years so now you rate in at your years of experience minus three years to a maximum of SEVEN years credit. Had I started working for them in 2010 I would have gotten rated in on the 10th step and I can see a certain logic with them not wanting to have me get paid the same as someone who started working for them three years ago with 10 years of credit, but it seems that the net effect is that I’m being rated in far lower than I should be. What is the logic of their system that I will be making $6000/yr LESS than if I had started three years ago? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/2 "2013-06-24T19:30:54Z")
Looking for logic in the policies of public education bureaucracies is probably a futile endeavor. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/3 "2013-06-24T20:00:15Z")
The logic is the school district is saving $6,000 a year. You are doing a job you are qualified to do at a pay you are willing to accept. Everybody should be happy. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/4 "2013-06-24T20:18:22Z")
My wife taught for one district for 30 years; she came into the job with seven years experience in one district. Every time the district renegotiated its master contract, the teachers on the top of the scale got less than the teachers on the lower end. The logic, I learned, is that a district can continue to attract new teachers with competitive starting salaries, while keeping overall payroll down by limiting raises for the more experienced staff. The experienced teachers, you may have noticed, are less likely to leave their jobs anyway, since they’d be giving up multiple steps on the salary scale if they went to a different district. Teaching isn’t the only profession that does it. My brother-in-law is a pilot. At his airline it’s not unheard of to have three pilots with the same amount of flying experience – one with the same airline, one who had changed airlines in mid-career and one who had served in the Air Force then joined the airline – have three different salary scales. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/5 "2013-06-24T20:24:34Z")
This is probably better suited to IMHO. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/6 "2013-06-24T20:26:43Z")
But what is the logic behind the 3 year cut in salary? In effect the double wammy of taking 3 years off of the years of experience PLUS rating in three steps lower? ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/7 "2013-06-24T20:54:10Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > But what is the logic behind the 3 year cut in salary? In effect the double wammy of taking 3 years off of the years of experience PLUS rating in three steps lower? The logic of power. They have it, you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/8 "2013-06-24T21:48:07Z")
I don’t understand what you mean by “Cut in salary.” Do you mean your salary has actually been reduced? Do you mean according to a 2010 contract you would be making X, but the contract you signed for 2013 is only paying Y? I’m guessing the logic is that the school district is having financial problems and it’s cutting salaries. If you’re saying you could have gotten a better deal had you joined that school district in 2010 than you got for joining it in 2013, well, times were different. Have you talked to whoever is the teachers’ bargaining agent? ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/9 "2013-06-24T22:27:31Z")
There is no logic. School districts around here are broke, and they want the best they can get for the least money. I live in a college town and each opening gets about 400 applicants, and not all new graduates, so the district can really pick and choose. When I was on negotiations it was always a fight between the district to have high starting salaries and the older teachers to have more money at the top. I started teaching late, so although I was old in years I was young in experience, and knew I wouldn’t benefit no matter who won. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/10 "2013-06-24T23:30:19Z")
I think I see the logic. When you join, you can get credit for up to 10 years of experience. So, when you joined, you had 10 years of experience. (I know, you had 16, but 10 is all you get, so as far as the school is concerned, you had 10.) However, there’s been a freeze for 3 years, so everyone who had been working at that school for 10 years only get 7 steps. So, it’s the same policy for new hires. The problem with your logic is you’re assuming that the extra 6 years of experience you worked should “count for something”. . . that you should be treated like somebody with more than 10 years experience. But school policy is that they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/11 "2013-06-25T04:36:58Z")
Even if the people are in power, there’s always a type of logic involved. If nothing else, they have to be able to give an explanation that makes sense to the workers or they may revolt. And, yes, the post above mine is that explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/12 "2013-06-25T11:49:52Z")
OK I found the part in the contract dealing with this. > [@](#): > > 2.2.1 The District shall grant one step on the salary schedule for each year of previous teaching experience up to a maximum of step 10; provided, however, that no annual experience step shall be provided for any school year when annual experience increments have not been provided for all current District teachers pursuant to the Teacher Salary Schedule. For example, in a year that annual experience increments are provided for all current District teachers, a teacher new to the district with three years of previous teaching experience hired by the District will be placed on step 4 in the appropriate column. And in a year that annual experience increments are not provided for all current District teachers, a teacher new to the District with three years of previous teaching experience hired by the District will be placed on step 3 in the appropriate column. The intent when granting credit for previous experience is to place newly hired teachers on the same step as a District veteran teacher who did not receive an annual experience increment for the 2009-2010, 2010-2011, and 2011-2012 school years. To me this reads that in terms of experience that they act as if 2009-2013 never happened. BUT if you have 10 years or more before 2009 you still rate in at step 10. Am I reading this wrong or is the District interpreting it wrong? ETA: So I guess the real question is does the last line mean that I am treated like a 10 year veteran teacher or a 16 year veteran teacher (step 13) but yet maxed out at step 10 according to the first line? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/13 "2013-06-25T15:12:57Z")
This is one of the problems with unions and collective bargaining agreements. If teachers were paid based upon their performance as a teacher, individually, as determined by 360 reviews as opposed to tenure, then I believe we’d have better, appropriately compsensated, fulfilled teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/14 "2013-06-25T16:09:21Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > This is one of the problems with unions and collective bargaining agreements. If teachers were paid based upon their performance as a teacher, individually, as determined by 360 reviews as opposed to tenure, then I believe we’d have better, appropriately compsensated, fulfilled teachers. You do realize that that in no way answers the question ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/15 "2013-06-25T17:07:54Z")
You’re right. Negotiated contract pay is not logical. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/16 "2013-06-25T17:51:40Z")
I have always thought pay based solely on longevity was wrong. All teachers are far from equal. Teaching is also very political, another thing I dislike. So I did not do those things. What is the policy of the district you left? What is the norm state wide? Did you know or could have found out in advance what was going to happen to you? Was it a surprise? Or do you think is unfair in general? Power corrupts. Common in any situation. Do do something about it. ---
**Author:** ![tralfamidor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@tralfamidor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tralfamidor)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/17 "2013-06-25T18:17:43Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > You’re right. Negotiated contract pay is not logical. Actually, the process of negotation in any successfully completed transaction is perfectly, almost elegantly logical. In the absence of coercion, we have to assume that the seller and the buyer are each realizing economic surplus from a transaction: i.e., the seller is selling above, and the buyer buying below, their respective reservation prices–the maximum/minimum prices at which they would be willing to purchase/sell. If the teacher takes the job at the reduced salary, he is still, by definition, selling his labor at above his reservation price. The fact that he is making less than before has no meaning in this context. If he was selling apples on the street, the fact that the going price of apples used to be 50 cents each would have no bearing on today’s price of 40 cents each. He still has the choice to sell or not sell the apples. If his reservation selling price was 42 cents, he wouldn’t sell them at all. So in a nutshell, the OP is getting paid less because he’s _willing_ to be paid less. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/18 "2013-06-25T19:12:47Z")
> [@tralfamidor](#): > > So in a nutshell, the OP is getting paid less because he’s _willing_ to be paid less. Except under a CBA, you get paid what the contrct says. My question is when they say you get a year’s credit up to step 10 and NOT 10 years of credit, then for a teacher with 16 years experience minus the three freeze years is my interpretation correct (I’m counted as having 13 years experience placing me at step 10) or is the district correct in giving me 10 steps minus three steps for the freeze year? If you want to talk about whether teachers should be paid for performance please start your own thread instead of hijacking mine. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/19 "2013-06-25T19:23:09Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > My question is when they say you get a year’s credit up to step 10 and NOT 10 years of credit, then for a teacher with 16 years experience minus the three freeze years is my interpretation correct (I’m counted as having 13 years experience placing me at step 10) or is the district correct in giving me 10 steps minus three steps for the freeze year? My reading is that you don’t get credit for those three years, so you are treated as someone with 13 years of experience. I.e., you get the maximum of step 10. Has you prospective employer been claiming otherwise? (IANAL) ---
**Author:** ![tralfamidor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@tralfamidor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tralfamidor)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-this-logic-to-me/661813/20 "2013-06-25T19:24:10Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Except under a CBA, you get paid what the contrct says. My question is when they say you get a year’s credit up to step 10 and NOT 10 years of credit, then for a teacher with 16 years experience minus the three freeze years is my interpretation correct (I’m counted as having 13 years experience placing me at step 10) or is the district correct in giving me 10 steps minus three steps for the freeze year? > > If you want to talk about whether teachers should be paid for performance please start your own thread instead of hijacking mine. Easy there, fella. The fact remains that you had/have a choice: accept the lower pay or walk away. The transaction wouldn’t have taken place at all unless you were willing to accept the lower pay. If it’s a contract/union issue, you also had/have the option to seek arbitration/sue/etc. In other words, if you’re truly dissatisfied with the price, don’t sell!