# Explain to an Englishman: why is the Arizona immigration law so controversial? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185 "2010-04-24T06:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/21 "2010-04-24T15:58:08Z")
Yes, it would feasible to have a situation where the governor of California is visiting Arizona on vacation, forgot his wallet in the hotel room, and was deported to Austria for failure to produce ID. While I think that is unlikely given his political and family connections, by the letter of the law that certainly could happen. That alone should demonstrate how wrong this law is. Would really like to see some asshat Birther in Arizona try to get the sitting President deported to Kenya under that law, too. THAT would be entertaining, now wouldn’t it? Basically, it allows anyone to accuse anyoneof being here illegally and start deportation procedures _even if they are a citizen._ That’s just wrong. And you know that this won’t hit the white, the rich, and the famous hardest, it will target the poor minorities. The potential for harassment of not just Hispanics but political opponents and the like is just too great. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/22 "2010-04-24T16:01:37Z")
Oh, be serious, **Broomstick**. There is still due process. They can’t bounce your ass back to your homeland on the instant. You’d have plenty of time for your lawyer to bring in your proof of citizenship. Still a hardship, of course, but let’s not make up imaginary scenarios. This is a forum for factual discussions. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/23 "2010-04-24T16:18:34Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I agree 100%. There are several problems with the law, but the unstated requirement that legal immigrants will now have to carry papers with them everywhere is the worst. Not just legal immigrants, but even natural born citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/24 "2010-04-24T16:33:24Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > Oh, be serious, **Broomstick**. There is still due process. They can’t bounce your ass back to your homeland on the instant. You’d have plenty of time for your lawyer to bring in your proof of citizenship. Still a hardship, of course, but let’s not make up imaginary scenarios. This is a forum for factual discussions. Ever seen what a bureaucracy can do to due process when it has a mind to? And this law, if accurately reported, seems to contemplate that one is required to prove American citizenship on demand – not because it has been validly questioned on reasonable grounds, but because someone sees behavior as suspiciious. Remember the case of the black man arrested for driving his own car to a friend’s home in a well-to-do Pennsylvania suburb – he was “acting suspiciously” by being a black man in a luxury car. The law, and good cops, may be colorblind – but rest assured there are people wearing a badge who are ethnically prejudiced. Plus, anonymous tips from people with an ulterior motive would be “probable cause” as the law is apparently written. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/25 "2010-04-24T16:39:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Having police involved in immigration law enforcement would make it even harder to police communities with large numbers of illegal immigrants. There’s quite a bit of unintentional irony in that statement, it must be noted. ---
**Author:** ![figure9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@figure9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/figure9)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/26 "2010-04-24T16:40:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Now we have all the different flavors of hispanic that are ‘stealing our jobs’ except traditionally they take jobs that more established citizen caucasions tend to not want to work because the income is so marginal. That was true in the past and is somewhat true now. However, their was a factory in my town that was caught employing illegals. After the illegals were removed, the factory had no trouble hiring citizens to fill its roster. American workers will do any job there is if the pay is right. I realize that I am in danger of hijacking this thread so I will state that the only purpose of this post was; to point out that the notion that illegals are only doing jobs that citizens won’t is not entirely correct. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/27 "2010-04-24T16:46:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It effectively requires any American citizen with brown skin (not white people, just people who look a little swarthy) to carry papers like they’re Jews in Nazi Germany. The issue is not what it does to undocumented residents, but that it selects out a particular group of _legal_ residents, including American citizens, and requires them to be thrown in jail if they don’t carry their birth certificates around. > > It’s an openly racist law. They might as well make Hispanics wear yellow triangles. > > I’m kind of curious what **Bricker** thinks of this law, since he would be one of the people forced to carry his birth certificate around if he were to go to Arizona. > > I think that racist, psychopath sheriff in Phoenix is behind this. I just started [a thread in GD](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=560833) to discuss the legality of this law. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/28 "2010-04-24T17:11:22Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > There are several problems with the law, but the unstated requirement that legal immigrants will now have to carry papers with them everywhere is the worst. For the OP and all other non-Americans, this may be hard to understand. I think national ID cards issued by the government are commonplace in almost all Western countries. But carrying an ID card is no trivial issue in America . A year or two ago, Britain had a political fuss about a proposal for new computerized ID’s–but the debate was about the technical issues–nobody questioned the basic concept of an ID card . But for many Americans, the simple concept that citizens would have to possess a national ID card is Orwellian. Worse than “1984”, worse than Communist Russia, it strikes terror into their hearts, and shakes the very foundations of free society. (Unlike Europeans, most Americans do not have passports, and have never crossed a national border. True story: I was once stopped by a policeman in Columbus Ohio, who asked to see my id (=driver’s license), and the ID of my friend, who happened to be a foreign tourist. My friend pulled out his passport, and the policeman had never seen such a document, did not know what it was, or whether he could accept it as official ID) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/29 "2010-04-24T17:11:57Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > There’s quite a bit of unintentional irony in that statement, it must be noted. “When Mr. Brown’s car was vandalized, it was illegally parked.” Being in this country without the necessary paperwork is a civil violation. They are illegal in the same sense as failure to pay your property taxes on time or breaking a contract without just cause is illegal. This does not mean that they as “illegal aliens” are not entitled to police proection from murders, rapes, robberies, assaults, and the like, or even the courtesies any person is entitled to in a traffic stop. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/30 "2010-04-24T17:19:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I just started [a thread in GD](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=560833) to discuss the legality of this law. And I saw that one before I saw this one, so I posted there what I would have posted here: > [@Legality of the new Arizona Immigration Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/legality-of-the-new-arizona-immigration-law/537220/5): > > This is way outta my field, and I’ve made no effort to research the issue other than reviewing Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution, which provides in possibly relevant part: > > \*The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; > > To borrow money on the credit of the United States; > > To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; > > **To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States** ;\* > > Full text found [here](http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html). > > I think it is possible to argue that a state can’t legislate in this area because Congress has the bolded power. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/31 "2010-04-24T17:27:16Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I just don’t get this! Your laws were made by immigrants, so why are they now as wanted as a revival of bubonic plague? Blaming everything on Mexicans is a great way for politicians to avoid solving real problems. The Supreme Court’s interpretation of the 4th amendment has already led to a lot of racial targeting by the police. This law, if left constitutional, will take 4th amendment protections to a new all time low. The loophole is that under the 4th amendment police need reasonable suspicion of a crime to stop someone and probable cause of a crime to arrest them. Once an arrest is made a cop has the authority to do a full body search for his own protection. If you create more crimes then you can stop and arrest people for the most trivial offenses. In New York that means turnstile jumpers can get arrested and searched. In Arizona it now means that every brown person can be stopped and every brown person without papers can be arrested and searched. I wouldn’t mind this standard if everyone was targeted evenly, but the laws lead to police suspecting minorities of crime a lot more than they suspect white people. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/32 "2010-04-24T17:53:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not just legal immigrants, but even natural born citizens. Yeah, that’s right. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/33 "2010-04-24T18:00:54Z")
Keep in mind the present administration is loathe to enforce current immigration laws and wants to flood the country with illegals so they can grant citizenship/get voters/put them on welfare and create a bloc of voters indebted to them. Arizona felt it was necessary to to act because they have to deal with the problems the illegals bring. You will also notice how many people have responded by calling the Arizona government racist and comparing them to Nazis. That is proof positive that they have no case: just bring out the buckets of mud and start slinging and demonizing the people who want to uphold the law by branding them as bigots. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/34 "2010-04-24T18:05:27Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Keep in mind the present administration is loathe to enforce current immigration laws and wants to flood the country with illegals so they can grant citizenship/get voters/put them on welfare and create a bloc of voters indebted to them. Arizona felt it was necessary to to act because they have to deal with the problems the illegals bring. You will also notice how many people have responded by calling the Arizona government racist and comparing them to Nazis. That is proof positive that they have no case: just bring out the buckets of mud and start slinging and demonizing the people who want to uphold the law by branding them as bigots. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/35 "2010-04-24T18:12:54Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Keep in mind the present administration is loathe to enforce current immigration laws and wants to flood the country with illegals so they can grant citizenship/get voters/put them on welfare and create a bloc of voters indebted to them. Arizona felt it was necessary to to act because they have to deal with the problems the illegals bring. You will also notice how many people have responded by calling the Arizona government racist and comparing them to Nazis. That is proof positive that they have no case: just bring out the buckets of mud and start slinging and demonizing the people who want to uphold the law by branding them as bigots. Is this a parody? ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/36 "2010-04-24T18:14:50Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > For the OP and all other non-Americans, this may be hard to understand. > I think national ID cards issued by the government are commonplace in almost all Western countries. But carrying an ID card is no trivial issue in America . > > A year or two ago, Britain had a political fuss about a proposal for new computerized ID’s–but the debate was about the technical issues–nobody questioned the basic concept of an ID card . No, the debate was about the concept of being required to carry an ID card. It is a civil liberties issue, not a technical issue (although some of the objections may have been framed in terms of cost and practicality). Ireland and Britain have the same tradition as the USA - a citizen going about his or her lawful business is not required to carry identification or produce it on demand. It may be true to say that identity documents issued by the government are commonplace (if you are talking about passports, driving licences, etc.) But there is a huge leap from there to having to carry an identity document and produce it on demand. And this is not a trivial issue in Ireland or Britain any more than it is in the USA. It would represent a basic change in our conception of society and the relationship of citizen and government. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/37 "2010-04-24T18:35:05Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Keep in mind the present administration is loathe to enforce current immigration laws and wants to flood the country with illegals so they can grant citizenship/get voters/put them on welfare and create a bloc of voters indebted to them. It’s the ghost of Ronald Reagan rattling the chains he forged in life… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/38 "2010-04-24T18:36:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not just legal immigrants, but even natural born citizens. Exactly. People seem to forget that there are “Mexican-looking” people in Arizona whose families have lived there since the 16th Century. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/39 "2010-04-24T18:38:36Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > If we had a national ID card, then this might not be as problematic to enforce (although I still wouldn’t support the law), but we don’t, so it’s probably going to be a recipe for a lot of nastiness. There is, of course, a form of national ID: the passport. But not everyone has one, and nobody who does have one carries it around for everyday business. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/40 "2010-04-24T18:44:11Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > A year or two ago, Britain had a political fuss about a proposal for new computerized ID’s–but the debate was about the technical issues–nobody questioned the basic concept of an ID card . Are you kidding? There was and still is [a _massive_ campaign against ID cards in general](http://www.no2id.net/). Heck, I try to actively avoid any discussion of political reforms and even I’ve heard of it—the campaigners put up posters and leave literature lying around everywhere. It’s all over the Internet too, not only on British sites and blogs, but also on political and tech sites like Slashdot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185.md?page=3)