# Explain to an Englishman: why is the Arizona immigration law so controversial? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185 "2010-04-24T06:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/41 "2010-04-24T19:14:36Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Are you kidding? There was and still is [a _massive_ campaign against ID cards in general](http://www.no2id.net/). Heck, I try to actively avoid any discussion of political reforms and even I’ve heard of it—the campaigners put up posters and leave literature lying around everywhere. It’s all over the Internet too, not only on British sites and blogs, but also on political and tech sites like Slashdot. [moderating] As GQ questions go, this one’s been asked and answered, and I’ve moved the thread over to GD so that everyone may continue the debate unhindered. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/42 "2010-04-24T21:30:32Z")
Great explanation Broomstick, but I have to take issue with one thing you said > [@Broomstick](#): > > Hell, there are illegal Mexicans in Canada, **They didn’t just teleport there**. There’s a continent-wide network of people smugglers and ways for illegals to get around. How do **YOU** know they didn’t? I think our laws are woefully lacking on the subject of teleporting Mexicans ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/43 "2010-04-24T21:37:11Z")
> [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](#): > > Oh, be serious, **Broomstick**. There is still due process. They can’t bounce your ass back to your homeland on the instant. You’d have plenty of time for your lawyer to bring in your proof of citizenship. Still a hardship, of course, but let’s not make up imaginary scenarios. This is a forum for factual discussions. There is this word “hyperbole” you might want to look up… Look, I stated that that scenario was unlikely to happen to Mr. Schwarzenegger, and why - wealth, celebrity, and family connections. None of which, by the way, poor unknown brown people have. Where are suspected illegal aliens supposed to get a lawyer from? Hire one? What, with no money? _Only citizens are guaranteed public defenders_, and since their citizenship is what’s in question do you _really_ think they’ll be assigned one? I think it far more likely that anyone underprivileged swept up by this law will NOT have a lawyer and will be railroaded through the system. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/44 "2010-04-24T21:52:40Z")
The problem is not that the police can and will be able to pick out illegal aliens, but that they will stop people who commit the crime of being dark complected. In America we have a right to go about our business without being harassed by the authorities. You have a right to privacy and the right to travel. This law singles out the dark complected for a special annoying treatment. If they want to stop illegals from coming, stop the companies from hiring them. When they hire a person who can barely speak English and he has crappy looking papers and they employ him, they should face a huge fine. Then they will quit coming. But as long as they can get jobs and improve their lives, they will continue to come. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/45 "2010-04-24T21:53:34Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Here’s what confuses me. Surely it’s always been a crime to be in the US illegally? No. Traditionally it’s not a felony, anyway. That’s changed in a few states in the last ten years. Since the Founders had open immigration, the new laws criminalizing undocumented aliens could be considered radical &–if you worry about that sort of thing–“un-American.” > [@](#): > > Don’t the police routinely question people about their immigration status if they have reason to suspect they’re in the country illegally? No, never. It’s considered counterproductive to police functions. The INS does immigration, not the local cops. > [@](#): > > Isn’t it already against the law to knowingly hire or transport illegals? I don’t know about this one. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/46 "2010-04-24T22:02:55Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > There’s quite a bit of unintentional irony in that statement, it must be noted. Not at all. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/47 "2010-04-24T22:17:36Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > If they want to stop illegals from coming, stop the companies from hiring them. When they hire a person who can barely speak English and he has crappy looking papers and they employ him, they should face a huge fine. Then they will quit coming. But as long as they can get jobs and improve their lives, they will continue to come. This is the standard Democratic Party line. I’m not sure what it would take to actually stop it through the employers. I don’t know if prison sentences for hiring undoc’s would even be enforced, & I personally consider such a penalty distasteful if not immoral. I think we should simply open the borders unilaterally & let the labor unions organize all the Mexicans. This will start to spread the ideals of organized labor through Mexico & Hispanoamérica, & organized labor has the best record of improving the lot of the working class in democratic societies in the last century. But of course that would be “wrong,” somehow, something about helping spics bein’ evil. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/48 "2010-04-25T00:21:06Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > This is the standard Democratic Party line. I’m not sure what it would take to actually stop it through the employers. I don’t know if prison sentences for hiring undoc’s would even be enforced, & I personally consider such a penalty distasteful if not immoral. > > I think we should simply open the borders unilaterally & let the labor unions organize all the Mexicans. This will start to spread the ideals of organized labor through Mexico & Hispanoamérica, & organized labor has the best record of improving the lot of the working class in democratic societies in the last century. > > But of course that would be “wrong,” somehow, something about helping spics bein’ evil. I was not aware it is a Democratic Party line. It just makes sense to me . That is ,if you really want to stop illegals. However you don’t have to open the borders, they are already open. How many millions of illegals are here now? You can not plug up thousand of miles of borders. It is merely logical to stop them where you can, at the workplace. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/49 "2010-04-25T00:50:04Z")
[QUOTE=Broomstick;12378978 Hell, there are illegal Mexicans in _Canada,_ They didn’t just teleport there. There’s a continent-wide network of people smugglers and ways for illegals to get around. [/QUOTE] This statement requires a cite. I just don’t believe it. At least in not in any significant numbers. Our system with our social security numbers and tax write offs for employers with certified citizens/immigrants as well as our inclination to deal with bona fide contractors if we don’t do it our selves doesn’t leave much of a market for alien labour. No body around here is hunting for aliens. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/50 "2010-04-25T01:08:08Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > This is the standard Democratic Party line. I’m not sure what it would take to actually stop it through the employers. I don’t know if prison sentences for hiring undoc’s would even be enforced, & I personally consider such a penalty distasteful if not immoral. How about seizing their property? Seize their factories, vehicles, bank accounts, lock, stock & barrel; if there is no profit in illegal labor, they will stop soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/51 "2010-04-25T01:46:55Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > This is the standard Democratic Party line. I’m not sure what it would take to actually stop it through the employers. I don’t know if prison sentences for hiring undoc’s would even be enforced, & I personally consider such a penalty distasteful if not immoral. There are laws against animal cruelty on the books, but they’re very rarely enforced in livestock operations. So folks that really care about the issue have started private certification programs: when I’m at the grocery store, I look for meat with American Humane’s “Certified Humane” logo on it, and I know that this meat has been produced in a manner that I feel comfortable with. Folks who really dislike illegal immigration ought to put their money where their mouths are, in my opinion. Start a “certified made by US citizens” campaign, and make the certification available to companies that don’t employ undocumented workers. Sure, they’ll pay a premium for their products, but if they care about the issue, won’t they be willing to pay the premium that they’re asking everyone to pay? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/52 "2010-04-25T02:02:44Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > This statement requires a cite. I just don’t believe it. At least in not in any significant numbers. Our system with our social security numbers and tax write offs for employers with certified citizens/immigrants as well as our inclination to deal with bona fide contractors if we don’t do it our selves doesn’t leave much of a market for alien labour. Oh, come on. The construction market in Ontario, for one, is absolutely flooded with illegal immigrants. It was a big deal a few years ago when they literally shipped an entire planeload of Portuguese illegals back to Lisbon and the contractors were bitching about how it took away their cheap labour. Thousands of immigrants denied the right to stay vanish from the radar. It’s a common problem. I’m sure some are from Mexico. But I’m not willing to be forced to “show your papers” to deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/53 "2010-04-25T02:20:34Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > This statement requires a cite. I just don’t believe it. At least in not in any significant numbers. Our system with our social security numbers and tax write offs for employers with certified citizens/immigrants as well as our inclination to deal with bona fide contractors if we don’t do it our selves doesn’t leave much of a market for alien labour. > > No body around here is hunting for aliens. I think you might find that it has less to do with “the system” and more to do with the fact that you’re a long fucking way off. You certainly [have illegal immigrants up there](http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0003961): > [@](#): > > The number of illegal aliens in Canada is obviously impossible to determine accurately. Estimates by police and immigration personnel range between 50 000 and 200 000. Where possible, without infringing upon traditional civil liberties, the government is endeavouring to close any remaining loopholes that have in the past facilitated the admission of persons not authorized under prevailing immigration legislation and regulations. Fraudulent claims for refugee status by aliens trying to avoid normal overseas screening and processing constitute one of the more serious problems confronting immigration officials. Minnesota has far fewer illegal immigrants (80,000 or so) than Arizona, too. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/54 "2010-04-25T04:30:25Z")
[Mexico–United States border - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_%E2%80%93_United_States_border) According to Wiki there is 1954 miles of Southern border. The Border Patrol has control over less than 700 miles of it. There are over 500,000 illegals crossing every year. So how does Arizona hassling a few dark skinned people fix anything? It is politicians doing a political feel good. Some of the people will be pleased because they can see the evil dark skinned people getting special attention from the police. But it will not fix the problem whatsoever. It makes every Arizonan a little less free. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/55 "2010-04-25T04:34:01Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [Mexico–United States border - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_%E2%80%93_United_States_border) According to Wiki there is 1954 miles of Southern border. The Border Patrol has control over less than 700 miles of it. There are over 500,000 illegals crossing every year. So how does Arizona hassling a few dark skinned people fix anything? It is politicians doing a political feel good. Some of the people will be pleased because they can see the evil dark skinned people getting special attention from the police. But it will not fix the problem whatsoever. It makes every Arizonan a little less free. And if that was the only thing being done, I think you’d be right. (But even then it would be something.) Any serious attempt to control illegal immigration must include going after the employers in a serious way. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/56 "2010-04-25T04:38:39Z")
Quite so - and yet this bill does no such thing, and instead merely serves as an excuse to harass darkies. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/57 "2010-04-25T05:29:11Z")
It used to be when a cop asked for ID I could have responded, “PAPERS?! I don’t need to show you any fucking papers!” But now they’ll deport me. :rolleyes: Oh, well, never mind. I’m not a darky, as **RANTB** puts it. Edit: I’m an Arizonan and with Sheriff Joe around, we’ve been putting up with this flavor of shit for a while now. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/58 "2010-04-25T06:00:06Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Edit: I’m an Arizonan and with Sheriff Joe around, we’ve been putting up with this flavor of shit for a while now. Yeah, I’ve been thinking that the synergy of this law and Arpaio make a perfect storm of suck for anyone with a tan and the wrong last name in Arizona. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/59 "2010-04-25T06:30:05Z")
Cops hate being _de facto_ ICE agents, and not just because it’s extra work. Community policing requires goodwill from the community being policed; you can’t find witnesses to murders and robberies if they’re afraid of being deported by local authorities. Also, if a cop is pulling over a car for speeding and the driver has immigration issues, the likelihood of a high speed chase or of the cop getting shot by the driver is suddenly a lot greater. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/60 "2010-04-25T06:32:29Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I agree 100%. There are several problems with the law, but the unstated requirement that legal immigrants will now have to carry papers with them everywhere is the worst. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not just legal immigrants, but even natural born citizens. And tourists, and foreign students, and those papers may be disregarded because, hey, you “look suspicious”, therefore so does your legitimate ID. It’s the same kind of law as the one that made it possible for Customs Officers to detain a cousin of mine when entering the country from a day in a gambling cruise on grounds of being “an attractive, unmarried Hispanic female” (she was there in the first place as a tourist, going home two days later, and a bank branch manager in Spain) or putting the Vice-President of Citibank for Latin America (a Venezuelan citizen who entered the US once a year to spend a month reporting) on a plane back and forbidding him entry for five years on grounds of looking “suspicious”. Only now, it isn’t only at the border: anybody whose looks a cop doesn’t like can be detained… and kept for how long? What is due process when you’ve been detained without charges? Is Arizona an at-will state? What if someone gets detained on account of looking too brown (or white, brunette and attractive) and misses several days of work because of it? Would this put them at serious risk of losing their job, as well as having lost N days worh of pay, and of getting a police record just for their looks? In what other country do you get a police record for your looks? Getting stopped yes, but getting on file for how you look? > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Folks who really dislike illegal immigration ought to put their money where their mouths are, in my opinion. Start a “certified made by US citizens” campaign, and make the certification available to companies that don’t employ undocumented workers. “Certified made by a company following the law”? That covers legal immigrants as well, and covers things like complying with ADA, giving due breaks to your employees and so forth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185.md?page=4)