# Explain to an Englishman: why is the Arizona immigration law so controversial? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185 "2010-04-24T06:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/81 "2010-04-25T18:47:30Z")
Or a much simple example. I’m a lawyer. When I need something served, I call up someone who is good at this, she gets it done, and I pay her. She is not my employee; she is a contractor, just like Purolator or FedEx is a contractor. I do not know what her nationality is, and I do not have to know if she is eligible to work here. I deduct the cost regardless of her immigration status. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/82 "2010-04-25T20:05:36Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Meanwhile, boatloads of huddled masses were anchored off the coast trying to get in legally but America wouldn’t let them in because there was no need for them considering all the jobs were taken by the people who snuck in. I can’t remember the thread or the poster, but someone here who understood the immigration process had a very good post that explained that the legal process of gaining entry into the country was so inefficient that in practical terms it doesn’t really exist. IIRC, it was posted about a year ago or so. Anyone remember it? ---
**Author:** ![rivulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rivulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rivulus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/83 "2010-04-25T20:42:42Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Because we’re so divorced from history that we somehow are able to draw a distinction that views Paddy and Friedrich and Guiseppe who rode steerage class across the ocean from Ireland and Germany and Italy to come, uneducated in the ways, language and laws of America, through Ellis Island, ready to go through the door marked “push to New York” with nothing but a few pennies (or pfennigs or lire) and a dream as scrappy heroes who risked big to make a new life for themselves in the land of opportunity, but Emilio who came in the back of a truck through the desert from Mexico is nothing but scum who needs to be sent home immediately. > > Gee, I wonder what might be underlying that… what could it be… Yes, the “whiteness” of an immigrant is definitely a consideration. However, speaking of being in touch with history… **jayjay** mentions how the Irish were also viewed as less than human at one point in the nation’s past: > [@jayjay](#): > > This isn’t entirely accurate in its conclusions. At the time, there was SERIOUS pushback about Paddy and Giuseppe. The Irish and Italians were seen as close to subhuman by the English/Scots-Irish population that was already here. I recall this book-length discussion on the topic of the perception of Irish immigrants: [How the Irish Became White](http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Became-White-Noel-Ignatiev/dp/0415918251). As one of the reviewers mentions, “people with white skin (in this case the Irish) were not necessarily treated or regarded as “white” automatically; white isn’t just a colour, it’s a social position that the Irish had to struggle very hard to get.” Question is, will Hispanic immigrants manage to become “white” at some point too? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/84 "2010-04-25T21:39:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Sadly, the usual answer is that they should have shut the door to immigration as soon as my ancestor arrived… No, you let one more group in behind yours. That way you don’t get stuck at the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/85 "2010-04-25T22:46:18Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > I can’t remember the thread or the poster, but someone here who understood the immigration process had a very good post that explained that the legal process of gaining entry into the country was so inefficient that in practical terms it doesn’t really exist. IIRC, it was posted about a year ago or so. Anyone remember it? Was it [this one?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11504236&highlight=quota#post11504236) ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/86 "2010-04-26T03:59:12Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Was it [this one?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11504236&highlight=quota#post11504236) Ah, yes. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/87 "2010-04-26T05:42:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Question is, will Hispanic immigrants manage to become “white” at some point too? That would entail ending affirmative action? Based on educational results of third generation migrants that seems unlikely. > [@](#): > > They’re not just like the Irish — or the Italians or the Poles, for that matter. The large influx of Hispanic immigrants after 1965 represents a unique assimilation challenge for the United States. Many optimistic observers have assumed — incorrectly, it turns out — that Hispanic immigrants will follow the same economic trajectory European immigrants did in the early part of the last century. Many of those Europeans came to America with no money and few skills, but their status steadily improved. Their children outperformed them, and their children’s children were often indistinguishable from the “founding stock.” The speed of economic assimilation varied somewhat by ethnic group, but three generations were typically enough to turn “ethnics” into plain old Americans. > > This would be the preferred outcome for the tens of millions of Hispanic Americans, who are significantly poorer and less educated on average than native whites. When immigration skeptics question the wisdom of importing so many unskilled people into our nation at one time, the most common response cites the remarkable progress of Europeans a century ago. “People used to say the Irish or the Poles would always be poor, but look at them today!” For Hispanics, we are led to believe, the same thing will happen. > > But that claim isn’t true. Though about three-quarters of Hispanics living in the U.S. today are either immigrants or the children of immigrants, a significant number have roots here going back many generations. We have several ways to measure their intergenerational progress, and the results leave little room for optimism about their prospects for assimilation. [http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=](http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/88 "2010-04-26T07:16:30Z")
> [@](#): > > That would entail ending affirmative action? Based on educational results of third generation migrants that seems unlikely. That study seems off kilter. For example, there’s this: > [@](#): > > The children of Hispanic immigrants (the second generation) actually stay in school much longer and earn a considerably higher wage than their parents. In fact, the Hispanic rate of assimilation from the first to the second generation is only slightly lower than the assimilation rate of more successful groups of immigrants. Most second-generation Hispanics make up nearly as much ground as the children of European immigrants would if they grew up in the same disadvantaged situation. The study then concludes that past immigrant groups showed a noticable difference between the second and third generations of immigrant descendants. Current Hispanic immigrant groups don’t show this third generation rise. Now the study concludes that this is a sign that Hispanics are not assilimating as well as past immigrant groups did. But there’s another alternative explanation - Hispanic immigrants may be assilimating better than past groups did. They may be hitting an assimilimation plateau in a single generation rather than the two generations that was common in the past. This would explain why there is no noticeable difference between the second and third generations - it’s not that the third generation stalled out, it’s that the second generation already crossed the finish line. And I’ve seen evidence that would support this alternative explanation. There’s evidence that indicates current immigrants are assilimating faster into American society than past immigrnats did. It’s not really a difference in the immigrnats themselves. It’s more an indication that things like public schools, television, and the internet push assilimation along much faster. Admittedly, the article does make other points. It says that the descendants of Hispanic immigrants have lower education levels and lower income levels than the descendants of non-Hispanic immigrants. That may be true - but I think it’s a leap to conclude that that’s proof of non-assilimation. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/89 "2010-04-26T07:42:00Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s evidence that indicates current immigrants are assilimating faster into American society than past immigrnats did. Citation? Someone posted something a while ago, but when you went through it the claim didn’t stand up. > [@](#): > > It says that the descendants of Hispanic immigrants have lower education levels and lower income levels than the descendants of non-Hispanic immigrants. That may be true - but I think it’s a leap to conclude that that’s proof of non-assilimation. Right, but that does pose a problem when education is particularly important as the economy becomes more complex & technology improves. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/90 "2010-04-26T12:23:54Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > I can’t remember the thread or the poster, but someone here who understood the immigration process had a very good post that explained that the legal process of gaining entry into the country was so inefficient that in practical terms it doesn’t really exist. IIRC, it was posted about a year ago or so. Anyone remember it? We should fix that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/91 "2010-04-26T12:55:24Z")
That would cost just as much money as actually guarding the border. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/92 "2010-04-26T13:08:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That would cost just as much money as actually guarding the border. But be vastly more effective, and would cost less in the long run. The problem with just more guarding of the Mexican border is threefold: 1. No matter how high a wall you build, someone can build a taller ladder, 2. There’s a lot of ways to get into the USA besides fording the Rio Grande, and 3. Blocking border traffic has many economic and social downsides; making the immigration system work properly does not. Putting a zillion border guards and dogs and mines and machine guns on the Mexican border will simply push illegal immigrants to find new routes in, will interfere with legitimate cross-border business and harass law abiding people, and would keep costing money forever. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/93 "2010-04-26T14:01:13Z")
Correct me if I’m wrong, but our local paper yesterday said that the law in question also allows citizens to sue the police if they (the citizen) feel that the police aren’t asking ENOUGH people about their immigration status. Is that the case? And if so…man, I see the court system in Arizona becoming absolutely GRIDLOCKED with lawsuits from all sides of this dogshit of a law. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/94 "2010-04-26T14:04:52Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > (we always that’s what the **French** –and Soviets–do, not we Americans). (bolding mine) There’s no obligation to carry or even have an ID in France (although it would make your life a bit complicated since it’s asked for a lot of things like writing a check, opening a bank account, receiving registered mail, etc…). Note that many french people believe themselves that it is mandatory. Similarly, the police can’t check your identity at any moment for whatever reason. The main cases when it’s allowed is if you happen to be present in the vicinity of a place where a crime has been commited or if an attorney allowed or ordered it in a given place for a given purpose and a given duration (that could include searching for illegal immigrants). Note again that many (most?) french people themvelses believe that the police can request an ID at any moment for any reason. Finally, if the police asks (legitimately) to see an ID and you don’t carry one, you can prove your identity by testimony (no clue how it works in practice) or the police can detain you up to 4 or 6 hours (I don’t remember exactly) to establish it. For the record, I’ve never been asked to show an ID by the police in my life (I’m 44). Now, if I were black/chinese/arab (hence a possible illegal immigrant) it probably would be another story. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/95 "2010-04-26T14:09:19Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but our local paper yesterday said that the law in question also allows citizens to sue the police if they (the citizen) feel that the police aren’t asking ENOUGH people about their immigration status. Is that the case? And if so…man, I see the court system in Arizona becoming absolutely GRIDLOCKED with lawsuits from all sides of this dogshit of a law. Not quite. The law allows citizens to sue (actually, file complaints against) _employers_ who they believe are employing undocumented workers. You can read the full text of the law [here](http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf) - the blue parts are the newly implemented language. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/96 "2010-04-26T14:35:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not quite. The law allows citizens to sue (actually, file complaints against) _employers_ who they believe are employing undocumented workers. > > You can read the full text of the law [here](http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf) - the blue parts are the newly implemented language. Cool, thanks. I still think it’s going to end up bringing the Arizona court system to a screeching halt as Joe McRacist sues the local burger joint for hiring too many dark-skinned people to bus tables, and dark-skinned Arizonans sue because they have to start carrying their birth certificates. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/97 "2010-04-26T14:39:58Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > So you are presumed guilty. Presumption of guilt is highly unAmerican. Hardly. That ship sailed in 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/98 "2010-04-26T14:59:39Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Cool, thanks. > > I still think it’s going to end up bringing the Arizona court system to a screeching halt as Joe McRacist sues the local burger joint for hiring too many dark-skinned people to bus tables, and dark-skinned Arizonans sue because they have to start carrying their birth certificates. Probably. But you get what you deserve. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/99 "2010-04-26T17:01:59Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but our local paper yesterday said that the law in question also allows citizens to sue the police if they (the citizen) feel that the police aren’t asking ENOUGH people about their immigration status. Is that the case? And if so…man, I see the court system in Arizona becoming absolutely GRIDLOCKED with lawsuits from all sides of this dogshit of a law. Those are obviously \*frivolous \*lawsuits, so they can just be dismissed, for the good of the community. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/100 "2010-04-26T17:06:04Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Because we’re so divorced from history that we somehow are able to draw a distinction that views Paddy and Friedrich and Guiseppe who rode steerage class across the ocean from Ireland and Germany and Italy to come, uneducated in the ways, language and laws of America, through Ellis Island, ready to go through the door marked “push to New York” with nothing but a few pennies (or pfennigs or lire) and a dream as scrappy heroes who risked big to make a new life for themselves in the land of opportunity, but Emilio who came in the back of a truck through the desert from Mexico is nothing but scum who needs to be sent home immediately. > > Gee, I wonder what might be underlying that… what could it be… That coming through Ellis Island was legal? That the government knew who you were, knew where you were going and knew you had no communicable diseases? Did I get it right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185.md?page=6)