# Explain to an Englishman: why is the Arizona immigration law so controversial? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185 "2010-04-24T06:33:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/101 "2010-04-26T17:07:34Z")
The government certainly did not know if you had communicable diseases. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/102 "2010-04-26T17:13:58Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Exactly. **We** have the benefit of history to look back upon. The discrimination faced by the Irish and Italian immigrants when they arrived in waves in this country is a black mark on our American story. It’s a _cautionary tale_, not something that we ought to be emulating, but we are. And it’s the direct descendants, the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of those Ellis Island arrivees, who seem to scream the loudest about sealing borders and shipping people home, ignoring that every complaint they have about current hispanic immigrants is a near perfect echo of the things that were said about their ancestors. While you have a point about the the discrimination new groups face, you ignore an important, blaring, distinction concerning the flavor of immigration. Those who came in through Ellis Island did so _legally_. Immigration and Illegal Immigration are two different things. Comparing people who took advantage of the first and perpetrate the second is unfair and is comparing apples and bananas. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/103 "2010-04-26T17:16:44Z")
There _were_ no limitations on immigration to the US until the 20th century. It was impossible to be an illegal immigrant. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/104 "2010-04-26T17:22:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There _were_ no limitations on immigration to the US until the 20th century. It was impossible to be an illegal immigrant. Really? And what would you call someone who was denied entry through the legal channels and found another way into the country? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/105 "2010-04-26T17:23:32Z")
> [@](#): > > That coming through Ellis Island was legal? That the government knew who you were, knew where you were going and knew you had no communicable diseases? > > Did I get it right? > [@](#): > > While you have a point about the the discrimination new groups face, you ignore an important, blaring, distinction concerning the flavor of immigration. Those who came in through Ellis Island did so legally. Immigration and Illegal Immigration are two different things. Comparing people who took advantage of the first and perpetrate the second is unfair and is comparing apples and bananas. That’s just a tautology. It’s illegal because it’s against the law and it’s against the law because it’s illegal. The reason most Irish and Italians immigrated legally was because it was possible for them to legally immigrate. The reason most Mexicans immigrate illegally is because it isn’t possible for them to legally immigrate. Now explain why it was legal for Irish and Italian immigrants to come to America but illegal for Mexican immigrnats to do so. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/106 "2010-04-26T17:37:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s just a tautology. It’s illegal because it’s against the law and it’s against the law because it’s illegal. Excellent. I’m glad you understand the difference to legal and illegal. Perhaps you can explain it to some of the illegals you might encounter. Or friends who are democrats. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The reason most Irish and Italians immigrated legally was because it was possible for them to legally immigrate. The reason most Mexicans immigrate illegally is because it isn’t possible for them to legally immigrate. So? I really, really, really want a Lamborghini. Just because the system is set up in a way that I may never be able to procure one through legal means doesn’t mean I can steal one. Also, can you name me a few countries where I could emigrate to illegally, even though I can’t do so legally, and expect to stay if found out? > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Now explain why it was legal for Irish and Italian immigrants to come to America but illegal for Mexican immigrnats to do so. Basically, because we were growing and determined that we needed more bodies, particularly laborers. When we no longer had that need, we curtailed it dramatically. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/107 "2010-04-26T17:41:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Really? And what would you call someone who was denied entry through the legal channels and found another way into the country? Imaginary, since nobody was denied entry. I say again: _there were no limitations on immigration prior to 1900._ ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/108 "2010-04-26T17:52:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Imaginary, since nobody was denied entry. I say again: _there were no limitations on immigration prior to 1900._ While there is no doubt a point in U.S. history that had no limitations on immigration, I was talking about Ellis Island (feel free to go back and check), which opened in 1892. [From Wikipedia:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellis_Island) (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > Generally, those immigrants who were approved spent from two to five hours at Ellis Island. Arrivals were asked 29 questions including name, occupation, and the amount of money carried. Those with visible health problems or diseases were sent home or held in the island’s hospital facilities for long periods of time. More than three thousand would-be immigrants died on Ellis Island while being held in the hospital facilities. Some unskilled workers were rejected because they were considered “likely to become a public charge.” About 2 percent were denied admission to the U.S. and sent back to their countries of origin for reasons such as having a chronic contagious disease, criminal background, or insanity.[19] **Ellis Island was sometimes known as “The Island of Tears” or “Heartbreak Island”[20] because of those 2% who were not admitted after the long transatlantic voyage.** The Kissing Post is a wooden column outside the Registry Room, where new arrivals were greeted by their relatives and friends, typically with tears, hugs and kisses.[21][22] So, my point stands. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/109 "2010-04-26T17:53:54Z")
In that particular case, obviously, those people were stuck on a boat going back the other way. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/110 "2010-04-26T18:00:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > In that particular case, obviously, those people were stuck on a boat going back the other way. But what if they were able to switch boats a hundred miles out and come into a town in New England. Once they set foot on land they’f be here _illegally_, would they not? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/111 "2010-04-26T18:03:07Z")
Yes. Assuming that they weren’t detained by the customs officials in the town. Now, how many people do you suppose did that? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/112 "2010-04-26T18:41:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes. Assuming that they weren’t detained by the customs officials in the town. Now, how many people do you suppose did that? That’s not the point. The point is that then, as now, it is possible to be here either legally or illegally. That’s what I thought you were objecting to. No? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/113 "2010-04-27T00:28:39Z")
> [@](#): > > So? I really, really, really want a Lamborghini. Just because the system is set up in a way that I may never be able to procure one through legal means doesn’t mean I can steal one. But I can explain to you why stealing a car is wrong. I take that back - I probably can’t explain it to you. But it’s a simple concept most people would grasp. What is the equivalent rationale behind banning immigration? Pretty much everybody in this country is here because of immigration and it seems to have worked out pretty well. > [@](#): > > Basically, because we were growing and determined that we needed more bodies, particularly laborers. When we no longer had that need, we curtailed it dramatically. Where’d you get that idea? People aren’t sneaking in this country just to break the law. They’re sneaking in here to work. If there were no jobs here, they wouldn’t be coming here. So obviously the need for labor exists. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/114 "2010-04-27T01:31:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But I can explain to you why stealing a car is wrong. I take that back - I probably can’t explain it to you. But it’s a simple concept most people would grasp. > > What is the equivalent rationale behind banning immigration? Pretty much everybody in this country is here because of immigration and it seems to have worked out pretty well. Huh? Do you not, or can you not, draw a line between legal immigration and illegal immigration? I’m all for the former (on our terms and to address our needs) but coldly against the latter. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Where’d you get that idea? People aren’t sneaking in this country just to break the law. They’re sneaking in here to work. If there were no jobs here, they wouldn’t be coming here. So obviously the need for labor exists. While people do not come here for the expressed purpose of breaking the law, they break the law all the same. As far the need for labor existing, you’re wrong. You’re confusing the the need for labor with the desire for cheap labor. They are not the same thing. When we have Unemployment numbers around 1%, we can talk about a need for labor. And even then, we can discuss some combination of increased immigration and a guest-worker program, like Canada has. Which is a smart solution when much of the need for labor is seasonal. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/115 "2010-04-27T01:54:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Imaginary, since nobody was denied entry. I say again: _there were no limitations on immigration prior to 1900._ What about the [Chinese Exclusion Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act) of 1882? That seems to predate 1900… ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/116 "2010-04-27T02:03:43Z")
Missed the edit window. The article I linked to above states : \*The Chinese Exclusion Act gave rise to the first great wave of commercial human smuggling, an activity that later spread to include other national and ethnic groups. Later, the Immigration Act of 1924 would restrict immigration even further, excluding all classes of Chinese immigrants and extending restrictions to other Asian immigrant groups. Until these restrictions were relaxed in the middle of the twentieth century, Chinese immigrants were forced to live a life apart, and to build a society in which they could survive on their own. Furthermore, The Chinese Exclusion Act did not address the “problems” that whites were facing; in fact, the Chinese were quickly and eagerly replaced by the Japanese, who presumed the role of the Chinese in society. Unlike the Chinese, some Japanese were even able to climb the rungs of society by setting up businesses or becoming truck farmers. However, the Japanese were later targeted in the National Origins Act of 1924, which banned immigration from east Asia entirely.\* As George Santayana said, _“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/117 "2010-04-27T03:19:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Huh? Do you not, or can you not, draw a line between legal immigration and illegal immigration? I’m all for the former (on our terms and to address our needs) but coldly against the latter. Like I’ve said, you’re back to saying illegal immigration is bad because it’s illegal. Why should it be illegal for Mexicans to immigrate to America? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/118 "2010-04-27T04:04:07Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I just don’t get this! Your laws were made by immigrants, so why are they now as wanted as a revival of bubonic plague? I once saw a cartoon titled “A Short History of Immigration”: PANEL 1: Guy #1: “What a beautiful spot!” Guy #2: "Hey, I was here first!’ PANEL 2: [They fight.] PANEL 3: Guy #2: “_Puff-puff_ All right, you can stay!” PANEL 4: Guy #3: “What a beautiful spot!” Guy #1 & Guy #2: “Hey, we were here first!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/119 "2010-04-27T04:05:26Z")
[Greg Palast: The law’s real purpose is to suppress (legal) Democratic voters.](http://www.gregpalast.com/behind-the-arizona-immigration-lawgop-game-to-swipe-the-november-election/#more-3592) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2010, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185/120 "2010-04-27T05:49:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Like I’ve said, you’re back to saying illegal immigration is bad because it’s illegal. > > Why should it be illegal for Mexicans to immigrate to America? Because the U.S. is a sovereign nation. I’m really having a hard time understanding your point. You didn’t answer my question, which would be helpful: do you or do you not make a distinction between legal and illegal immigration. Additionally, do you think a nation has a right to control its borders? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-an-englishman-why-is-the-arizona-immigration-law-so-controversial/537185.md?page=7)