# Explain to me predestination
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [March 2, 2006, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750 "2006-03-02T13:53:48Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/1 "2006-03-02T13:53:48Z")
Also known as: if our fate is already determined, why try?
I don’t get it. Not that I don’t think this is possible, but if you belong to a branch of Christianity that believes this, why bother trying to convert people?
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### Author:  [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/2 "2006-03-02T14:21:07Z")
If one were to consistently apply the idea, believers are fore-ordained to make the attempt (and those that “convert” are destined to do so also).
It seems to me that _choice_ is implicit in your use of “try”; strict predestination entails no choice.
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### Author:  [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/3 "2006-03-02T14:32:10Z")
But when Presbyterian Girl tries to convince me to go to her church, refusing to take excuses because she thinks it’s her DESTINY to make me go or something, how is that any different from choice?
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### Author:  [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/4 "2006-03-02T14:33:12Z")
I mean, it could just as easily be her destiny to fail in making me go. She choosing to believe it isn’t. Or maybe she’s predestined to believe she will succeed but will actually fail…
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### Author:  [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/5 "2006-03-02T14:46:27Z")
> [@FlyingRamenMonster](#):
>
> I mean, it could just as easily be her destiny to fail in making me go.
Yes, exactly.
> [@](#):
>
> She choosing to believe it isn’t.
No, not if you fully apply the concept.
> [@](#):
>
> Or maybe she’s predestined to believe she will succeed but will actually fail…
Yes, exactly.
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### Author:  [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/6 "2006-03-02T15:14:34Z")
I think the idea is that God, being God and privy to all of the past and future, knows just who is going to end up in Heaven and who in Hell. It follows therefore that somewhere there must be, even if only in the mind of God, a list of the elect and the damned. It also follows that some of us are on one list and some on the other.
Hence, predestination.
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### Author:  [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/7 "2006-03-02T15:21:23Z")
In fact, thinking about it, if one believes in an omniscient God then one has little choice _but_ to believe in predestination. Any Christians around who aren’t predestinarians and would care to explain their thinking?
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### Author:  [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/8 "2006-03-02T16:26:06Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#):
>
> In fact, thinking about it, if one believes in an omniscient God then one has little choice _but_ to believe in predestination. Any Christians around who aren’t predestinarians and would care to explain their thinking?
I’m not really a christian anymore, but I never saw how “God knowing how everything is going come out” = “You are predestined to go to heaven/hell or make any particular choice”.
And after reading the “agnostic” thread, I still don’t see it.
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### Author:  [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/9 "2006-03-02T16:31:49Z")
Let me take a stab at this one. If you are a parent, you generally have a pretty good idea how your child will respond to a specific set of circumstances. But you still allow him to make the choice, because that’s how he learns.
Being human, we don’t have perfect knowledge, so sometimes our kids surprise us. God, being omniscient, has a perfect knowledge and knows excactly how we will choose in each and every scenario. But he still allows us to make the choice. He doesn’t force us into it.
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/10 "2006-03-02T16:32:29Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#):
>
> In fact, thinking about it, if one believes in an omniscient God then one has little choice _but_ to believe in predestination. Any Christians around who aren’t predestinarians and would care to explain their thinking?
I’ll take a stab. God exists outside of time and so, if you like, sees every choice you make simultaneously from his atemporal perspective - but from your temporal perspective, he doesn’t see the choice before you make it. Beware of invoking omniscience too readily and too sloppily. It’s sort of like multiplying both sides of an equation by infinity: the equation may balance, but you haven’t found out anything useful.
If predestination is true, it doesn’t matter whether or not you believe in free will; you will do exactly the same as if you believed in predestination. But if free will is true, you might do much evil by believing in predestination, thinking that your choices were foreordained. It seems as though you have less potential for harm, and more for good, by acting as if free will were true. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/11 "2006-03-02T16:33:42Z")
Of course **FatBaldGuy** and I were both predestined to use the “take a stab” figure of speech. :eek:
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/12 "2006-03-02T17:12:25Z")
> [@Malacandra](#):
>
> Of course **FatBaldGuy** and I were both predestined to use the “take a stab” figure of speech. :eek:
Apparently I’m predestined not to take a stab at answering **aldiboronti** ’s question today, but I was predestined to join the club of users of the aforementioned “take a stab” expression.
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### Author:  [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/13 "2006-03-02T17:27:04Z")
> [@HPL](#):
>
> I’m not really a christian anymore, but I never saw how “God knowing how everything is going come out” = “You are predestined to go to heaven/hell or make any particular choice”.
I’m curious – how could you see it any other way and remain consistent?
It seems to me that “God knowing” entails, _by necessity_, no possibility of events “coming out” differently. If there is no possibility of differing outcomes, there is no choice.
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### Author:  [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/14 "2006-03-02T17:53:36Z")
Just because God knows how everything will turn out, we don’t.
When we have a decision to make, we explore options, we weigh the alternatives, we anguish over the decision and we make a choice. We have free will. The results of our choice impact our life and the lives of others around us.
Did God know in advance what choice we would make? Yes.
Did he force us to make that choice? No.
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### Author:  [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/15 "2006-03-02T18:25:49Z")
> [@Digital Stimulus](#):
>
> I’m curious – how could you see it any other way and remain consistent?
>
> It seems to me that “God knowing” entails, _by necessity_, no possibility of events “coming out” differently. If there is no possibility of differing outcomes, there is no choice.
I don’t see what’s inconsistant about God knowing how every choice is going to come out and the fact you have a choice to make. He knows because you made that choice.
I know how the Civil War ended. Every time I open a book the war ended the same way. That doesn’t change the fact that there were choices invovled that could have changed that outcome.
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### Author:  [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/16 "2006-03-02T19:16:50Z")
> [@HPL](#):
>
> I don’t see what’s inconsistant about God knowing how every choice is going to come out and the fact you have a choice to make. He knows because you made that choice.
>
> I know how the Civil War ended. Every time I open a book the war ended the same way. That doesn’t change the fact that there were choices invovled that could have changed that outcome.
Yes, but God knew how the Civil War ended before it happened, so what choice did they have but to fight it?
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### Author:  [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/17 "2006-03-02T19:20:37Z")
Or rather, what choice did thy have but to fight it to the already-decided conclusion?
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### Author:  [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/18 "2006-03-02T19:36:24Z")
Say for example that I hop into my time machine and visit the world on the day after the 2008 election. Then I come back to today.
I know who is going to win the election. Does that mean that everyone else has no choice in the matter? Or does it just mean that I know something no one else knows?
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### Author:  [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/19 "2006-03-02T20:25:08Z")
> [@FatBaldGuy](#):
>
> Just because God knows how everything will turn out, we don’t.
> \
> Did God know in advance what choice we would make? Yes.
> Did he force us to make that choice? No.
> [@HPL](#):
>
> I don’t see what’s inconsistant about God knowing how every choice is going to come out and the fact you have a choice to make. He knows because you made that choice.
Ah, I think I see the confusion (which is as **aldiboronti** says); I think that the mistake lies in assuming we’re talking about _our_ knowledge vs. that of God. Just because _humans_ do not know the outcome does not mean they have a choice. Again, I’ll say it: _knowledge_ entails necessity (otherwise it is but _belief_).
From a human perspective, I _know_ that on the afternoon of Thursday, March 2nd, 2006 (in our conception/perception of the space/time continuum) that I posted on the SDMB. That is a necessary fact. I may _believe_ I’ll do the same on Friday, March 3rd, 2006, but until it happens, it is just a belief (and not knowledge).
Now, my understanding is that when people say _God knows_, that entails necessity (for, after all, God is infallible according to my understanding). In other words, there is not even the _possibility_ that events will be different – whether _we_ know/believe it or not.
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### Author:  [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-predestination/346750/20 "2006-03-02T20:27:56Z")
> [@Digital Stimulus](#):
>
> Now, my understanding is that when people say _God knows_, that entails necessity (for, after all, God is infallible according to my understanding).
Sorry, I forgot a clause; that should read “…entails necessity _across all possible interpretations of events_ (for, after all…”.
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