# Explain to me the need for countertenors **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 18, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673 "2005-11-18T18:30:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/1 "2005-11-18T18:30:29Z")
I have been getting into baroque music lately. It seems a big part of baroque music are castrati, and, failing that, countertenors. I don’t think I like countertenors very much. I have heard the “big names”. James Bowman sucks. Brian Asawa sucks. Andreas Scholl is 20 kinds of awesome but he also seem to be the only one who can actually sing. So tell me, what can countertenors do that women can’t? This had better be impressive. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/2 "2005-11-18T21:22:52Z")
> [@csharpmajor](#): > > I have been getting into baroque music lately. It seems a big part of baroque music are castrati, and, failing that, countertenors. I don’t think I like countertenors very much. I have heard the “big names”. James Bowman sucks. Brian Asawa sucks. Andreas Scholl is 20 kinds of awesome but he also seem to be the only one who can actually sing. So tell me, what can countertenors do that women can’t? This had better be impressive. Well, first of all, they are singing in falsetto, which isn’t necessarily true of women who are altos or even sopranos singing the same part. There is a different quality to the sound of falsetto singing from regular voice. But the more important reason is that, at the time the music was composed, it was sung by male castrati, countertenors, and the like. Thus, if you take music from that era, and have a woman sing the parts, it isn’t sounding like the audience at the time would hear it. This is vital when you listen to the works of [url=http://www.schickele.com/P. D. Q. Bach, for example. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/3 "2005-11-18T21:23:57Z")
[P. D. Q. Bach](http://www.schickele.com/) I DID preview it, more’s the pity. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Jpeg\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@Jpeg\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jpeg_Jones)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/4 "2005-11-18T22:44:40Z")
Ladies weren’t allowed to sing in churches back in those days, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/5 "2005-11-19T01:50:31Z")
Can you tell the difference, just be listening, between a countertenor and a female alto? You can? Well then, there’s your answer. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/6 "2005-11-19T05:42:42Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Can you tell the difference, just be listening, between a countertenor and a female alto? > > You can? > > Well then, there’s your answer. I can tell the difference because one sounds decent, and the other sounds weak, tremulous and slightly drunk. That’s NOT a good thing. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/7 "2005-11-19T06:38:58Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Can you tell the difference, just be listening, between a countertenor and a female alto? > > You can? > > Well then, there’s your answer. Isn’t it contralto? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/8 "2005-11-19T06:47:05Z")
I, too, often don’t like hearing countertenors and would prefer if women sang the roles. It’s not just falsetto, it’s often fruitier than that, like when the Monty Python members portray frumpy old women. It’s kind of creepy hearing serious music sung by someone who sounds like Tiny Tim. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/9 "2005-11-19T15:30:02Z")
Because without countertenors, the tenors would just take over the world, man. And that would be SOOOOO gnarly! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/10 "2005-11-19T15:31:12Z")
Alternatively: SOMEBODY’S got to keep track of how many tenors there are, dude! ---
**Author:** ![KlondikeGeoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3e96dc/32.png) [@KlondikeGeoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KlondikeGeoff)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/11 "2005-11-19T20:50:49Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > It’s kind of creepy hearing serious music sung by someone who sounds like Tiny Tim. Good one! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/12 "2005-11-19T21:31:58Z")
> [@csharpmajor](#): > > So tell me, what can countertenors do that women can’t? This had better be impressive. The only real answer is that countertenors can be men who sing in that range. Women can’t do that. I’ve asked on here before how it’s possible to tell the difference between a boy soprano and a girl or woman and never got an answer for that one, either. ---
**Author:** ![Alias](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@Alias](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alias)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/13 "2005-11-20T02:11:27Z")
Several years ago, I saw an opera version of “A Midsummer Night’s Dream” in which Oberon was played by a countertenor. It was one of the best portrayals I’ve ever seen of the character, because he managed to sound eerie, ethereal, and masculine all at the same time, even in a falsetto. I thought it was amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/14 "2005-11-20T05:36:58Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Alternatively: > > SOMEBODY’S got to keep track of how many tenors there are, dude! Jeez, **Evil Captor** , could you lay off the bondage refs in CS for _five seconds?_ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/15 "2005-11-20T07:29:37Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’ve asked on here before how it’s possible to tell the difference between a boy soprano and a girl or woman and never got an answer for that one, either. There isn’t really any answer to give. They just sound slightly different, and with familiarity you come to identify that difference. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/16 "2005-11-20T13:25:27Z")
> [@Alias](#): > > Several years ago, I saw an opera version of “A Midsummer Night’s Dream” in which Oberon was played by a countertenor. It was one of the best portrayals I’ve ever seen of the character, because he managed to sound eerie, ethereal, and masculine all at the same time, even in a falsetto. I thought it was amazing. I strongly suspect it was Brian Asawa. _mutter mutter_ ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/17 "2005-11-21T03:37:36Z")
I am bumping this once because nobody has given me a satisfactory answer beyond “they are male”. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/18 "2005-11-21T03:48:34Z")
> [@csharpmajor](#): > > I am bumping this once because nobody has given me a satisfactory answer beyond “they are male”. That _is_ the answer. Why have a countertenor? Because it’s a rare skill for a _man_ to hit those notes. It’s not rare for a woman or a boy. It’s rare for a man. So when a man sings it, it’s special. People value skills or talents that are unusual, so they like countertenors. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/19 "2005-11-21T04:15:00Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Why have a countertenor? Because it’s a rare skill for a _man_ to hit those notes. It’s not rare for a woman or a boy. It’s rare for a man. So when a man sings it, it’s special. People value skills or talents that are unusual, so they like countertenors. And if a dog could be trained to howl those notes, that would be even _more_ rare and special, and hence, more desirable than countertenors. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673/20 "2005-11-21T07:55:36Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > That _is_ the answer. > > Why have a countertenor? Because it’s a rare skill for a _man_ to hit those notes. It’s not rare for a woman or a boy. It’s rare for a man. So when a man sings it, it’s special. People value skills or talents that are unusual, so they like countertenors. But that’s not a PURPOSE! Why have nose-flautists - because it’s a rare skill for people to be able to - no, no, no. :o I want a PURPOSE. As in, why have countertenors survived into this day and age instead of going the way of the viol or the harpsichord or the Beach Boys. I see no reason you need _countertenors_ to perform baroque music unless there is some sort of oestrogen limit/penis quota on stage and they are taking the place of the forbidden women. Or something. Because “they are men” doesn’t seem to me to be a very good reason to use _them_ in castrato roles, since falsetto sounds different from normal singing, the castrati did not sing falsetto, women singers do not sing falsetto and so you could just as easily claim using women is more “authentic” than using countertenors. I mean, I wouldn’t mind them if they actually sounded good, but as **Thudlow** said the vast majority of them sound quite creepy and so I would like to know their purpose please. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-the-need-for-countertenors/331673.md?page=2)