# Explain to me what is wrong with school vouchers as an idea **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941 "2017-04-21T19:53:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/41 "2017-04-21T22:11:01Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Actually, you are, because the public schools got a bunch of money sucked out of them to pay for vouchers you aren’t even going to use. Remember, the side most in favor of vouchers don’t think that public education should even be a thing at all. Hell, some of them are even opposed to mandatory school attendance. That makes their motives, and potential actions should they get their way, suspect at best. …Do you understand how a voucher works? That’s not it. If 800 kids go to a school, and 5 years later, it’s 700 kids, the amount of money the school gets per student is the same. For that matter, if it now has extra space because there are only 700 students, it can just rent that space to the private school and come out financially the same. (since it saves money by needing fewer teachers and less supplies, and also is paid those rent payments) If no one exercises the voucher, nobody pays anything. No money is sucked out from anywhere. The voucher is a piece of paper (or electronic equivalent) that basically says “teach this kid to accredited standards, and you get X dollars”. Money is only transferred if the private school turns that voucher back into the state and then eventually they get paid that amount of money. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/42 "2017-04-21T22:17:07Z")
And I was saying that I fundamentally do not trust people like our current Secretary of Education not to change the rules and norms to attempt to dismantle public education for good. Because they have said repeatedly that that’s their ultimate goal. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/43 "2017-04-21T22:25:05Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Then you don’t exercise the voucher and you’re no worse off than you were. Duh. Reread my question. The private school has decided YOUR kid isn’t good enough. But the smart kid in the class, he’s gone. And the better-off kid, she’s gone, too. Meanwhile, their parents start asking, “Why should I vote for a school tax increase? My kid’s getting a voucher. Instead of me paying more money in taxes, I’ll pay the same amount, and have more left if the private school has to increase tuition. Come to think of it, I think I’ll start a drive among the private school parents, senior citizens and childless people so we can CUT school taxes.” And your kid is still in public school. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/44 "2017-04-21T22:30:22Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Then you don’t exercise the voucher and you’re no worse off than you were. Duh. That’s only the case if voucher programs are _in addition_ to maintaining public schools at their current or an improved level. Which they never are. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/45 "2017-04-21T22:31:36Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > …Do you understand how a voucher works? That’s not it. > > If 800 kids go to a school, and 5 years later, it’s 700 kids So in your universe, fixed costs aren’t a thing? Or do they just let 1/8 of the school building go to shit since it’s no longer needed? Do they cut the principal’s salary by 12.5%? And the librarian’s? And what about the professionals who aren’t responsible for educational outcomes, but provide vital support services, and there’s only one of them (such as in supervisory positions)? Does the head of IT get a pay cut? The head custodian? The head of food service? Do you fire 1/8 of their staff? 1/8 of the teachers? ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/46 "2017-04-21T22:37:14Z")
And what about debt service? The bank sure as shit isn’t going to care that the funding has suddenly been cut by 1/8–they still want their payments on the loan the school district took out to build a desperately-needed new junior high school 20 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/47 "2017-04-21T22:37:34Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Reread my question. The private school has decided YOUR kid isn’t good enough. But the smart kid in the class, he’s gone. And the better-off kid, she’s gone, too. Meanwhile, their parents start asking, “Why should I vote for a school tax increase? My kid’s getting a voucher. Instead of me paying more money in taxes, I’ll pay the same amount, and have more left if the private school has to increase tuition. Come to think of it, I think I’ll start a drive among the private school parents, senior citizens and childless people so we can CUT school taxes.” > > And your kid is still in public school. > > Duh. And, your kid is in public school with the other students that are more difficult to teach, whether because of behavior issues, developmental delays, poor parental involvement, a combination of those, or any other factors that makes the private school decide they those students would be more expensive to teach, and so refuse to take them. This means that each student requires more resources, at a time when you are removing recourses. The idea that schools can just scale their capacity to the size of the student body, especially with the idea of renting out spare space to private institutions, is entirely unrealistic. It is also hard to figure out if private schools are actually performing well. As they generally only take the better students, the fact that the private school then has better outcomes means nothing. It is entirely possible that, had that student that got accepted to a private school would have done better staying in public. Public schools, usually being bigger than private, have more classes to offer, more college prep programs, and more extracurriculars than a private school can offer. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/48 "2017-04-21T22:44:56Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Then you don’t exercise the voucher and you’re no worse off than you were. Duh. Actually, you are. Because now there is less money in your public school due to the kids who were able to exercise the vouchers. Certain costs for the school do not change no matter how many kids are there (you cannot do maintenance on 80% of a roof when enrollment comes down 20% - you still have to maintain the entire thing). And so when money goes out of school because of vouchers, the kids left behind whether it’s because they couldn’t get into another school, the vouchers weren’t sufficient for the costs of another school, there are no other schools in the area that fit their needs - whatever are all in a demonstrably worse position. So - I’m asking you, as a proponent of vouchers, what is your plan for those kids? ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/49 "2017-04-21T22:49:01Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > Actually, you are. Because now there is less money in your public school due to the kids who were able to exercise the vouchers. > Certain costs for the school do not change no matter how many kids are there (you cannot do maintenance on 80% of a roof when enrollment comes down 20% - you still have to maintain the entire thing). And so when money goes out of school because of vouchers, the kids left behind whether it’s because they couldn’t get into another school, the vouchers weren’t sufficient for the costs of another school, there are no other schools in the area that fit their needs - whatever are all in a demonstrably worse position. > > So - I’m asking you, as a proponent of vouchers, what is your plan for those kids? “Fuck you, got mine” apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/50 "2017-04-21T22:51:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Of all the ideas for improving education, I’m pretty sure paying teachers less is among the worst. If teachers unions were eliminated, some teachers would probably be paid less, and some more. I think it would increase flexibility to attract and remove higher performing and lower performing teachers. > [@constanze](#): > > Provided they aren’t a minority/ non-white, where moving faces invisible barriers even if the income is there. This is absurd. You think Palo Alto or Sunnyvale has some invisible barriers to non-white people? Money faces no barrier. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/51 "2017-04-21T22:55:58Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think it would increase flexibility to attract and remove higher performing and lower performing teachers. How the hell do you propose to measure a teacher’s performance, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/52 "2017-04-21T23:00:45Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Because teachers aren’t people and don’t have rights. > [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > Where’s the fun in shitting on robots? They have no feelings or dignity, which means that there’s no joy to be had in hurting their feelings or breaking their dignity. > [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > “Fuck you, got mine” apparently. This is a note to let you know that your posts in this thread are hard to distinguish from trolling. This is important because depending on which side of the evaluation you fall, the result is significantly different. I suggest you avoid the appearance of trolling in the future. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/53 "2017-04-21T23:37:47Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Look, you already admit that you are okay with inequality. You have made your reasons clear. No need to give untruths. Please do not appear to accuse other posters of lying. If you feel you must, the BBQ Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/54 "2017-04-22T00:35:10Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > If teachers unions were eliminated, some teachers would probably be paid less, and some more. I think it would increase flexibility to attract and remove higher performing and lower performing teachers. I have worked in charter schools too (with no unions), and I have to say that that is not the case, particularly when the schools are located in poor areas. Regarding the main topic, I have to say that unfortunately a lot of the same politicians that are putting voucher systems in place also do not do much to check for the quality of the education or the teachers those private schools offer. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/55 "2017-04-22T00:59:14Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > So in your universe, fixed costs aren’t a thing? > > Or do they just let 1/8 of the school building go to shit since it’s no longer needed? Over a long timeline, the rough amount of students who are going to a given public school vs going private via voucher will be about the same. School districts are of all different sizes today. Yet somehow a district with 10k students doesn’t go broke from fixed costs vs a district with 30k students. The only problem is during the transitions, as parents take their kids out of public and move them to private after a voucher program is first started. You could fix this simply by making the vouchers for the first 5 years only be 2/3 of the amount of money the school district would get. (or start at 50% year 1 and ratched up to 100% by year 5). Simple. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/56 "2017-04-22T01:06:54Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > I would agree that public money shouldn’t be spent towards religious education. Though I’d also be ok with the school financially isolating their religious section, and requiring a separate payment from the parents if they want their kid indoctrinated in that. It won’t work like that. Imagine you are the one kid who has to sit out religion class. Kids want to be a part of the pack and being the outsider is anathema to them. There will be all sorts of pressure to conform. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/57 "2017-04-22T01:14:35Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It won’t work like that. Imagine you are the one kid who has to sit out religion class. Kids want to be a part of the pack and being the outsider is anathema to them. There will be all sorts of pressure to conform. Fair enough. I dislike religious schools in general, but if that’s what floats parent’s boats, who are we to stop them? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/58 "2017-04-22T01:34:33Z")
Here is how I see it: when I go into that there business, to do business (like, buy stuff), there is a pretty high probability that I will have to deal with individuals who were educated in the public system. Therefore, I spend taxes on public education, in order to be able to engage non-ignorant people in my daily dealings. With vouchers, you, in the furtherance of your own child’s betterment, are through vouchers, taking money away from individuals with whom I must deal on a regular basis. The taxes you pay to support public education go toward making your daily encounters a little less sucky. As to measuring performance, I do not believe it can be done. The lag time in the effects of learning stuff is too great to make assessments on how good a school actually is. I am not sure what the best solution to education should be, but vouchers and charters do not look to me like a very good strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/59 "2017-04-22T01:41:17Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Fair enough. I dislike religious schools in general, but if that’s what floats parent’s boats, who are we to stop them? The problem is there will rarely be alternative schools to choose from. Even if there is a public school available the vouchers have siphoned money from the system so the public school is now worse. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941/60 "2017-04-22T01:52:07Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > If the problem is “the public schools here are bad,” then how is “remove money and other resources and committed, involved parents” a solution? What does this do to fix the public schools? Competition. If the public school has to compete for student dollars instead of resting assured that tax dollars will pour in, they will have to up their game to the level of the private school. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explain-to-me-what-is-wrong-with-school-vouchers-as-an-idea/784941.md?page=4)