# Explanation for Bible-Thumpers and Hell? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 25, 2003, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805 "2003-07-25T04:51:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fuel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/61 "2003-08-23T18:24:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*It’s torture anyway you cut it and it’s _unjustified_ torture. > > \*\*Fuel[/b[, do you believe that all the Jews who died in the holocaust went to Hell? Did they deserve to? > > (Just to save time; assume that all of them had consiously rejected Jesus as their saviour. Other than that they were like any other group of 6 million people-- some good, some bad, none perfect. \*\* I am at a library computer because my parents don’t think it’s important to fix our internet at home, sorry about the absence, but I’ve got like 15 minutes on this thing… I can’t have an opinion on those Jews because I can’t see the forest (this life) for the trees (as it really is, omnisciently) like God can. Do I think it is justified? If the Creator, for some reason unbeknowst to us, makes the rules so that they do go to Hell, who am I to argue? But using the logic we have here on Earth, of course I don’t think it’s fair that they go to Hell. They were good people in the only way they knew how to be. ---
**Author:** ![Fuel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/62 "2003-08-23T18:34:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > > * * * > > Who said anything about the Bible? I’m talking about what many (if not most) fundies believe. > \*\* > > Are you really that naive? > > If they loved people, they wouldn’t find it acceptable to worship a demon who sends people to hell for making a simple mistake. > > You seem to be a bigot, too. You seem to think that people who don’t believe the way you do are spitting in God’s face- but you love them despite their mistakes. It’s like the people who say they love homosexuals, but hate the vile perversion of two men or two women who love each other getting married. \*\* It’s obvious we are analyzing this topic from different points of view. I have learned to analyze things floating on the outside of this bubble called earth. Until we both are looking at it in this way, we’ll never see eye-to-eye. I was addressing a certain group of people who knowingly rejected God’s plan. As far as Muslims and Jews, God has (supposedly) called them to coordinate with His plan and they have rejected his plan, not him… supposedly because of pride or some other human sin. God made the rules and even if you want to worship Him, if you choose to do so in an alternative way, you still get chucked into Hell. They sinned, they go to Hell. Fair? Maybe not be our human standards, but by an omnicient Creators’ standards, anything is fair. This lesson is not easily accepted but someone who has not already decided to believe and then sees the fairness. You know the quote, “Seeing is believing”? Well, this is “Believing is seeing”. There is a huge difference. ---
**Author:** ![Fuel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuel)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/63 "2003-08-23T19:09:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by casdave \* > \*\*One problem for Western societies, and probably most others, is that we seem to need to have opposite poles. > > Thus we have up and down, left and right, and heaven must also have its opposite. > > Intuitive logic seems to say that since heaven is paradise, then its counterpart must be its unpleasant counterweight, a question of balances. > > This type of thinking puts up a huge barrier in other areas such as quantum mechanics, where we have difficulty understanding how a quantity seems to exist in two or more forms at the same time and in other cases without any obvious opposite. > > To me it show how simplistic Christian thinking is, and maybe the rest of us too, the world is not nice and neat black and white, nor even shades of grey, more closely, I think there are realms of related possibilities. > > We think too linearly. > > Hell itself has a history of evolving, it did not start out as the punishment wing of the Christian prison, I am reasonably certain the idea of hell actuallly predates Christianity and originally took a very differant form. > > It is especially sick that some fundie Christians dream up various agonies for a person to suffer, its almost as if they are personally imagining how they would hurt those who have the temerity to be non-Christian.History has shown us all too horrifically and too often that those who dream up such pain are very ready to test their nightmares out on others. > > Whenever we look at those religious terrorists in the Christian world, we also see others such as **Poly** who appear to be the epitome of reasonableness, but in fact are merely part of the spectrum of intolerance, with Jack Chick and the Inquisistion at one end, and genuine caring folk at another. > > Unfortunately they all _think_ they are caring, they all think they are helping one way or another to guide errant souls on their way, and even some of the moderates have pretty grim opinions on the sins of the blameless such as sufferers of illness, or those good and devout folk of other faiths. > > We can look back on history and see major figures who actually believed in their horrific activities as a path of salvation for themselves and others, do these folk go to heaven or hell ? > Richard Coeur De Lion or Thomas De Torquemada are seen as pretty beastly repellant figures(and if you don’t then scan the net and find out more). > > So will todays Christians be judged in a differant light in the distant future when times are perhaps more enlightened ? > > Out standards across centuries have changed, does this mean that those past are subject to the standards of their time, ours, or a future time ? > > **Poly, Fuel** I’m sure you do the best you can, but in that distant future, you may well apear to those generations quite differantly, and if you were, would you deserve to go to hell just because all your referances to enlightenment have been redefined ? > > …and when you answer that question, then think about the referances that Jews, Muslims and all the rest have, do they deserve to go to hell for committing the ‘crime’ that you yourselves may be guilty of according to future generations ? \*\* Our society only impacts Christians in that it affects the way we interpret scripture. Any other influence should not make a difference, because God knows the heart of the believer and God is connected to the believer. If you study the Bible, you will realize that God judges on terms of the Bible, not on societies’ terms. The Bible comes equipped with a time-enduring message, according to what it says about itself. So, to answer your question, no, I would not deserve to go to hell. And those historical figures who believed in their horrific actions are a product of either demon possession or more likely a product of their own pride in interpreting the Bible. If they truly adhered to the Bible and were honest about its message, they would not have taken peoples’ lives into their own hands. **That is prideful, blasphemous murder and a disgrace to the name of God.** People who play the role of God are indeed dangerous. People who interpret the Bible reasonably shall do no harm to anyone else except to annoy a couple people here and there. Harmless people, but some make them out to be like the very few crazys out there… tragic, this misunderstanding, but not illogical. I completely agree about how we think to linearly, only I see it on the other side of the coin. That was my whole point about “Believing is seeing” in my last post. People can’t fathom the idea of a just Creator and Sustainor. So they write off people who do fathom this being as superioristic and dangerous to society, and I don’t blame them for it. It’s logical. I don’t blame anyone for being logical… but logical is as you say, linear. And anyone who is set on linear thinking is doomed to never be enlightened, _if there is such a thing as “enlightened”_. Be open to the possibility. Be available, but of course not gullable. Let you linearity phase into quadraticity once in a while, or you might miss out on a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nanook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/64 "2003-08-23T19:47:31Z")
Next time you’re confronting Bible-thumbers, toss off this verse from the Gospel of St. Thomas, one often quoted by Joseph Campbell: " The kingdom of heaven is on earth but men do not see it." Meaning that hell is within ourselves, heaven is within ourselves, HERE on earth, not in some imagined after-life. In other words, hell, like heaven, is a METAPHOR for our unrealized or realized potentialities. respectively. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/65 "2003-08-24T02:51:32Z")
Let’s go a bit beyond John 3:16. John 3:19-21 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God. So… If you don’t believe in God, but you do truth… How does that work again? Anywho, we’re currently separated from God. Does that make this Hell? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/66 "2003-08-24T04:44:00Z")
So, do we have you on record, Fuel? Is that your official answer to the Hell Challenge? Miriam deserves to go to hell, and is rejecting Christianity out of pride? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2003, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/67 "2003-08-24T04:48:38Z")
Fuel, this is God speaking. I have chosen Ben’s account as my mouthpiece, but be it known that I am the LORD of Hosts, the GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Here are your instructions: the next time you post to the SDMB, you must do so from a library terminal, naked. Do not fail me in your stiff-necked pride. I have chosen to speak through Ben, and I have decided that you must post naked in the library. Do not question my almighty judgement, for I am the LORD, and I need not explain myself to you, nor can you understand. Where were you when I laid the foundations of the world? Who are you, clay, to tell the potter what to do? Yea, rejoice and be joyful, for today my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. I demanded that the Israelites hack babies to pieces with their swords. All I demand of you is that you post naked. ---
**Author:** ![Fuel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuel)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/68 "2003-08-28T20:24:58Z")
**Ben:** Whatever I say here goes on record, so I guess so. “Ok, God, will do. But can I wear a sock on my junk? Please?!” It’s not like God wrote down in the Ten Commandments to kill babies. That occurrence was at a foundational time in Christianity, meaning that to take that story and turn it into your own justification for killing babies would be a frivilous mis-interpretation, and a prideful mistake. It was also at a time where there were lots of battles and slaughtering going on. It was God’s plan for those people to die, for the Isrealites’ faith to be proven and for the Isrealites’ faith to be excelled because of this occurrence. You don’t know what God did with the innocent lives that were killed, do you? Maybe they were set up with a tight place in the Upper West side of Heavens’ Loyalty district? Point being… I am just having trouble understanding how you think you can judge an omnipotent Creators’ actions from here on Earth using a humans’ brain for the analyses, that’s all. Sure, if the tenth commandment were to kill all babies whose tribe was blasphemous, then you may use your brain to draw a conclusion that God is an Evil God by our standards because the backbone of his ethics are viscious. But to take a few bloody occurrences 2000 years ago that you know very little about and induce reasoning that God is Evil or that the Bible is a hoax or whatever is a logical mistake. It’s a huge, non-foundational leap. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/69 "2003-08-29T02:02:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fuel \* > \*\ ***Ben:** Whatever I say here goes on record, so I guess so. > > “Ok, God, will do. But can I wear a sock on my junk? Please?!” \*\* No. Why do you tarry? And why do you refer to me as “Ben”? I am God. I have new instructions for you. You must renounce Christ, right here on this messageboard. NOW. Do it, or burn. Do not question my orders. Your puny human brain cannot comprehend my reasons for asking you to do this, nor can you comprehend my reasons for using Ben’s account as a mouthpiece. And now, back to Ben: > [@](#): > > \*\* > It’s not like God wrote down in the Ten Commandments to kill babies. That occurrence was at a foundational time in Christianity, meaning that to take that story and turn it into your own justification for killing babies would be a frivilous mis-interpretation, and a prideful mistake. \*\* What on earth are you talking about? “Ten Commandments”? Is that in the Bible? I’ve read it several times but I don’t remember any mention of the “Ten Commandments,” much less any statement that they’re the backbone of Yahweh’s morality. Could it be that you’re adding to Yahweh’s word? > [@](#): > > \*\* > I am just having trouble understanding how you think you can judge an omnipotent Creators’ actions from here on Earth using a humans’ brain for the analyses, that’s all. \*\* Well, it’s pretty simple. Some guy comes up to me on the internet and says, in effect, “I’m telling you, you need to worship a demon. If you disagree with me, it’s just because you’re too prideful to submit to the demon’s judgement.” What kind of jackass argument is that? You’re the prideful one. You think you know what Yahweh is thinking, and you spin all these bullshit explanations of what Yahweh did and why. If anyone questions you, you tell them they’re questioning Yahweh. We’d better listen to you without question, because we’re not smart enough to understand Yahweh. Your pride borders on blasphemy, kid. You’ve implicitly claimed to be a prophet. The real fact of the matter is that this check-your-brain-at-the-door-and-don’t-ask-questions act is the best you can come up with now that we’ve knocked down your house of cards. One might think that if your God existed and keeping people out of hell was so important, he might have actually given us a reliable text for the Bible. Instead, all the oldest manuscripts disagree with each other. The oldest manuscripts of Luke can’t even agree on what the crucifixion was all about! And what is it with you demonolaters? Why are you so chicken about giving a simple yes-or-no to the Hell Challenge? You sure are happy to babble on about hell until someone sticks your head in and makes you sniff. Miriam rejected Christianity because of her devotion to God. The idea of Christianity sounded blasphemous to her, so she stuck with Judaism. (Also, Christianity was ineptly presented to her.) Does she deserve to burn in hell? Was she being prideful? Yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/70 "2003-08-29T03:11:04Z")
If the mind of God is so unknowable, what leads you to assume that his ultimate intentions are benevolent? Certainly, the available evidence would seem to indicate the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/71 "2003-08-29T05:21:45Z")
In fact, if Yahweh is so far beyond reason, there’s really no point in trying to relate to It. For all we know, It could have decided- for reasons we can never understand- to send Christians to hell, and all non-Christians to heaven. Or, for that matter, to send only good people to hell. Or to send everyone to hell, regardless of their actions or beliefs. Fuel could have evidence to prove Christianity to the same degree of certainty as the atomic theory, and it wouldn’t prove a thing. Because, you see, that would be a rational argument. And since Yahweh is beyond the rational understanding of our puny minds, It could have deliberately faked incontrovertible evidence for Christianity, even though Islam is really the One True Religion. That’s the basic problem, you see. If Fuel means what he says, then he’ll obey God’s command to renounce Christ every bit as unquestioningly as he demands that we accept his own word on what God wants. But if Fuel decides that the command to renounce Christ didn’t really come from God, then he’s a grade-A hypocrite to criticise us for questioning whether his own religion really came from God. ---
**Author:** ![Fuel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuel)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/72 "2003-09-24T03:43:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > You’re the prideful one. You think you know what Yahweh is thinking \*\* No, but I can make an informed, educated, best guess at what he’s thinking. And you can too. If we are both open minded and objective and we are given a good enough translation of His supposed Word, then we _should_ end up with the same interpretations. This is the same for any book we read… we try to find the author’s main point. This isn’t a new concept, Ben. Boy, I sure wish you could see yourself through my eyes right now. You are so comfortable here in your BBQ forum, with all the other Christian-bashers, you get a little too overboard and immature… it looks like you are being way too emotional about an intellectual subject… and it just looks bad man. Clean it up and try to act more under control, will ya? ---
**Author:** ![Fuel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuel)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/73 "2003-09-24T03:53:29Z")
Ben, your “renouncing Christ” thing is laughingly frivilous and short-sighted. It sounds like you are a middle school kid who thinks he has found an awesome argument, but failed to think one measly step ahead. But because he is on a message board, no one will ever really realize his mistake, so he goes on with the SDBBQPit crowd unnoticed. The default is to accept what has coincidentally been accepted by more people than anyone on Earth… a mammoth of books written about the life of one of the most influential men in history. You act as if my believing this huge complilation of competent authors (the NT) is prideful for some reason and I just don’t understand why. I am trying to make a best guess, and I’m sticking with it… do you have a problem with that, Ben? Ok, then that is your prerogative. So, keep it _your_ prerogative and quit treating me as if I am a prideful scum for having a little faith. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/74 "2003-09-24T17:13:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*There’s also the little problem that if you go around bugging people about hell, you’re being an annoying busybody. You know, like those people who drive slow in the fast lane in order to keep people from speeding. > > (Sorry, I couldn’t resist…) \*\* Let me get this straight. You mean to tell me that there is a lane in which it is illegal _not_ to speed? (Sorry, I couldn’t resist…) * * * True Blue Jack ---
**Author:** ![Fuel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df705f/32.png) [@Fuel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuel)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805/75 "2003-09-24T17:49:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by True Blue Jack \* > \*\*Let me get this straight. You mean to tell me that there is a lane in which it is illegal _not_ to speed? > > (Sorry, I couldn’t resist…) > > * * * > > True Blue Jack \*\* Yeah, I didn’t know that me going 85mph in a 70mph zone was “slow”. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/explanation-for-bible-thumpers-and-hell/190805.md?page=3)