# Exploding Pagers in Lebanon {2024-09-17} **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 17, 2024, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395 "2024-09-17T18:27:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/261 "2024-09-19T22:00:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In the end, maiming is more merciful than killing, is it not? A terrorist who lost a hand or an eye may no longer be able to shoot a gun, but they can still find gainful employment in a field other than terrorism. What about the guys who lost both eyes? Or both hands? Or both eyes AND both hands? You’re also assuming Lebanon has the resources to rehab several thousand people suddenly blinded and maimed. I’m not sure where the line is crossed from “bearable maiming” to “fate worse than death”, and it’s going to vary from person to person. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If it turns out that the civilian casualties were minimal, and that it disrupted the terrorist network significantly, that’s an overwhelmingly good thing. Yes, in the context of a war that would be a good for the side instigating the exploding pager attack. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > If I were designing them, I’d include a tiny vial of [dimethylmercury](https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=19970914&slug=2560362) with the explosives. That’s just plain evil and would _guarantee_ horrific civilian deaths as bystanders would inhale the vaporized compound. It would be a freakin’ chemical weapon. Seriously, what were you thinking when you typed that? > [@Babale](#): > > What a strange way to describe an attack that exclusively targeted Hezbollah agents. Except we do know some innocents/bystanders were killed. Unless you’re arguing that 8 year old girls are full members of Hezbollah? The question now is whether or not the collateral damage would qualify as “disproportionate”. Not that I think Netanyahu’s government cares about such distinctions. It is almost certainly more discriminate that the bombing that has been going on in Gaza but that is indeed damning with faint praise. > [@Alessan](#): > > Maybe Hezbollah should worry more about making Israel mad instead. This is a good point. Then again, it would be very helpful if _everyone_ in that region of the world stopped trying to piss off/kill other people. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/262 "2024-09-19T22:19:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s not how the term is used in practice. That’s precisely how it is used in practice, except for when people are trying to draw false equivalence to a military action the speaker didn’t like. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Governments engage in terror tactics all the time without it being called terrorism. So you keep insisting, without providing any evidence that this is the case. Neither of your two examples (this incident or drone strikes) fits the definition of terrorism, because neither targets the civilian population with violence in order to scare them into a desired political result. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > This _would_ have been called terrorism if a government wasn’t behind it. Only by people who don’t know the definition of terrorism, since this targeted Hezbollah personnel rather than the civilian population. > [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > What a strange way to describe an attack that exclusively targeted Hezbollah agents. > > Except we do know some innocents/bystanders were killed. Unless you’re arguing that 8 year old girls are full members of Hezbollah? Were those 8 year olds targeted by the attack? Putting explosive charges in pagers used by Hezbollah seems like a very strange way to target an 8 year old girl. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/263 "2024-09-19T22:24:37Z")
Apologies if this has been answered, but is anyone aware of any discussion as to the explosive power of these pager/walkie-talkie explosions? For example, was it more or less than an M-80? What would happen if it was in my pants pocket/in my hand with my arm by my side/in my hand in front of my face… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/264 "2024-09-19T22:26:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So you keep insisting, without providing any evidence that this is the case. Neither of your two examples (this incident or drone strikes) fits the definition of terrorism, because neither targets the civilian population with violence in order to scare them into a desired political result. That’s just wrong. The purpose and effect of drone strikes is to produce widespread fear among the population. And this is pretty clearly a terror attack given how it was clearly optimized for maiming rather than killing and to create general fear. Plus of course I can just read the news and see how “terrorism” _is_ in fact treated exactly how I say. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/265 "2024-09-19T22:44:38Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > For example, was it more or less than an M-80? Much more. An M-80 contains 3.5 g of flash powder. Not a high explosive, so it just burns quickly (though with a bang since it’s confined to a cardboard tube). The pagers contained 1-2 ounces of explosive, or 25-50 grams. And it was undoubtedly a high explosive such as C-4. So probably ~10x as much explosive, plus a high explosive so you get a detonation, plus it’s likely to be more energy dense in the first place (I can’t find the energy density of flash powder, but the pagers probably had about 300 kJ of energy). All that combined, plus the shrapnel effect probably made them \>100x as damaging as an M-80. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/266 "2024-09-19T22:59:17Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The pagers contained 1-2 ounces of explosive, or 25-50 grams. The whole pager was supposed to weigh only 95 grams, I doubt it could be 25 to 50 percent explosives. The stories I see say more like 2 or 3 grams. In the battery, according to the NYT. [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/18/world/middleeast/israel-exploding-pagers-hezbollah.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/18/world/middleeast/israel-exploding-pagers-hezbollah.html) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/267 "2024-09-19T23:03:12Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > The stories I see say more like 2 or 3 grams. In the battery, according to the NYT. Your linked story says “Powered by just a few ounces of an explosive compound concealed within the devices”. I’ve seen varying reports of the weight, from 95 g to 133 g. If nothing else, they could make use of this ambiguity. But regardless, there’s undoubtedly room for reducing weight in other ways. 95 g is already a lot for something as simple as a pager. Wouldn’t shock me if some of that was actually ballast to make the device feel more expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/268 "2024-09-19T23:15:38Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Your linked story says “Powered by just a few ounces of an explosive compound concealed within the devices”. I posted that story because of the “inside the battery” line. The 3ish grams comes from other stories. But even within the NYT story if they thought about it they should see a problem with fitting a “few ounces” of explosives inside the battery, especially while still working as a battery. The 95 grams comes from the [manufacturer’s specifications page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/55) I linked early in this thread. > |Dimensions (mm)|73(L) x 50(W) x 27(H)| > |—|—| > |Weight|95g including battery| > |Operating Temperature|-10C to +50C| > |Battery and Charging|Lithium battery, up to 85 days with 2.5 hours for full battery charge, USB-C charging| ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/269 "2024-09-19T23:21:38Z")
Which stories? 3 grams seems a little too small to be reasonable. Even if the 95 g is accurate, there’s no reason you couldn’t squeeze 35 g of explosive in there. Maybe you’d have to make the battery a little smaller or carve out the inside of the case a bit, but that’s doable if you have months of planning. And like I said, there’s a good chance it’s 95 g because they stuck some metal washers in there to give it some heft. Pagers are incredibly simple devices. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/270 "2024-09-19T23:27:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The purpose and effect of drone strikes is to produce widespread fear among the population. Do you have _any_ evidence for this? I have never seen a shred of credible evidence for this claim, as opposed to drone strikes being intended to eliminate specific militants. Certainly part of the goal is to ensure that no _militant_ feels safe anywhere on Earth, but attacking the enemy force’s morale (as opposed to the morale of civilians on the opposite side, mind you) is not terrorism; it’s how every war in history has been won. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Plus of course I can just read the news and see how “terrorism” _is_ in fact treated exactly how I say. Then I’m sure you’ll have no problem citing plenty of times where the news referred to attacks on military targets by non state actors as “terrorism” while not referring to attacks on civilians by state actors as such. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/271 "2024-09-19T23:30:30Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Which stories? [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-planted-explosives-hezbollahs-taiwan-made-pagers-sources-say-2024-09-18/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-planted-explosives-hezbollahs-taiwan-made-pagers-sources-say-2024-09-18/) > **[Israel's Mossad Planted 'Three Grams Of Explosives' In Pagers Sold To...](https://www.news18.com/world/who-is-behind-the-mass-explosions-of-pagers-in-lebanon-heres-what-us-and-israel-said-9054519.html)** > > The U.S. denies involvement in Hezbollah pager explosions, urging Iran to maintain restraint while discussing regional tensions and diplomatic resolutions > **[3 grams explosives in 5,000 pagers: How Israel carried out covert strike on...](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/3-grams-explosives-in-5000-pagers-how-israel-carried-out-covert-strike-on-hezbollah/articleshow/113449165.cms)** > > Middle East News: Explosives embedded in over 5000 pagers by Mossad triggered simultaneous explosions across Lebanon, causing over 11 deaths and injuring more than 3000 > **[How Hezbollah pagers remained undetected for months even with three grams of...](https://www.businesstoday.in/technology/news/story/three-grams-of-explosives-how-the-hezbollah-pagers-remained-undetected-for-months-446451-2024-09-18)** > > In an elaborate covert operation, Mossad planted explosives in pagers used by Hezbollah, leading to a coordinated explosion that killed nine and injured nearly 3,000 across Lebanon. The devices remained undetected for months, showcasing sophisticated... > **[What to know about the two waves of deadly explosions that hit Lebanon and Syria](https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-hezbollah-pager-explosion-e9493409a0648b846fdcadffdb02d71e)** > > Just one day after pagers used by hundreds of members of millitant group Hezbollah exploded, more electronic devices detonated in Lebanon. > **[3 Grams Of Explosives Per Pager: Israel's Complex Op To Hurt Hezbollah](https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/3-grams-of-explosives-per-pager-israel-complex-op-to-hurt-hezbollah-6590229)** > > Israel's Mossad spy agency planted a small amount of explosives inside 5,000 Taiwan-made pagers ordered by Lebanese group Hezbollah months before Tuesday's detonations, a senior Lebanese security source and another source told Reuters. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/272 "2024-09-19T23:33:10Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Except we do know some innocents/bystanders were killed. Unless you’re arguing that 8 year old girls are full members of Hezbollah? The question now is whether or not the collateral damage would qualify as “disproportionate”. There’s never been a war in human history where an 8-year-old didn’t get killed. War without collateral damage only happens in video games. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/273 "2024-09-19T23:43:18Z")
Apologies if this is a hijack - I’ll stop the questions. But I had also heard the 3g figure. Just had no idea of what explosive power of 3g of likely explosives would be. And I really don’t know flash powder from black powder from dynamite. But my faint recollections from 45 years ago was that M80s - or even Black Cats or cherry bombs - were at least powerful enough that I wouldn’t want one going off in my pocket or next to my ear. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/274 "2024-09-19T23:46:30Z")
Ok. Still, those seem as speculative as the NYT article. For instance, the AP article just says: > the group is currently investigating what type of explosives were used in the device, suspecting RDX or PETN, highly explosive materials that can cause significant damage with as little as 3-5 grams. That’s not an actual statement on how much explosive was there, just that a small amount could have caused significant damage. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > Just had no idea of what explosive power of 3g of likely explosives would be. Even 3 g would be much more damaging than the 3.5 g of flash powder in an M-80. You’d probably lose a finger from one of those, but it would be hard to die from one (though I’m sure someone has succeeded somewhere). ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2024, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/275 "2024-09-19T23:58:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > it’s probably only a matter of time before people here in the US start being randomly killed by their appliances It’s a helluva lot easier to rig up a [pipe bomb.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipe_bomb) Put it in a brown paper wrapped package, set it to go off when the string is cut, leave it on the target’s front porch. And you can get a much higher death/maimed toll, especially if other people are around. Or you can go for a [pressure cooker bomb.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombing) Carry it into a crowd in a backpack, leave it somewhere inconspicuous, trigger it with an electronic signal when you’re a safe distance away, and there you go – Boston Marathon redux. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/276 "2024-09-20T00:02:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And I now that the idea and its demonstration is out there I doubt it’ll stay confined to the region, it’s probably only a matter of time before people here in the US start being randomly killed by their appliances. How do you think someone is going to booby-trap other people’s appliances? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/277 "2024-09-20T00:23:59Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Maybe you meant to say “would have been” instead of “is”? Fair enough; I was characterizing the hypothetical suggestion of adding of dimethylmercury to an explosive device. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > The pagers contained 1-2 ounces of explosive, or 25-50 grams. And it was undoubtedly a high explosive such as C-4 Just a 30 grain initiator charge would be ~2 grams, and wouldn’t do much more than damage the interior and maybe crack the housing. The [damage to the pagers](https://gizmodo.com/app/uploads/2024/09/Beeper-1400x932.jpg) and the extent of injuries indicates at least 20 grams of high explosive, probably some formulation of Semtex or PETN-based plastique. > [@Smapti](#): > > There’s never been a war in human history where an 8-year-old didn’t get killed. While non-combatant casualties are part of any broad conflict, particularly where bombs and explosive ordnance are used (and again itself Hezbollah has a specific terroristic objective of intentionally targeting civilians) the use of this kind of ‘booby trap’ contained “in the form of apparently harmless portably objects” is a violation of Protocol II, Article 7, Item 2 of the 1980 “Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons Which May Be Deemed to Be Excessively Injurious or to Have Indiscriminate Effects”, to which Israel is a signatory. Whether you think it is justified because Hezbollah is awful, or that the United States or another signatory might do a similar thing and be applauded for it, or that such conventions are too restrictive in the face of “The War on Terror”, et cetera does not change the fact that it is definitionally a violation of this protocol and thus arguably a war crime. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/278 "2024-09-20T00:24:52Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > the use of this kind of ‘booby trap’ contained “in the form of apparently harmless portably objects” is a violation of Protocol II, Article 7, Item 2 of the 1980 “Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons Which May Be Deemed to Be Excessively Injurious or to Have Indiscriminate Effects”, to which Israel is a signatory. Is Hezbollah? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/279 "2024-09-20T00:38:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Is Hezbollah?. No, as stated above, the point of International Law is to create some actors (Hamas, Hezbollah, Russia with their veto power) who it protects but does not bind, and other actors who it binds but does not protect. What does international law say about the thousands of rockets coming into Israel from Lebanon? Is international law gonna put a stop to that? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395/280 "2024-09-20T00:47:46Z")
International law says that’s not OK, and I definitely don’t support the United States sending military aid to Hezbollah, given their violations of international law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploding-pagers-in-lebanon-2024-09-17/1007395.md?page=15)