Exploding Pagers in Lebanon {2024-09-17}

[Darren_Garrison]

@N9IWP

In the United States, pagers typically receive signals using the FLEX protocol in the 900 MHz band. Commercial paging transmitters typically radiate 1000 watts of effective power, resulting in a much wider coverage area per tower than a mobile phone transmitter, which typically radiates around 0.6 watts per channel

No idea what is used in Lebanon.

The specs for the Hezbollah Limited Edition pagers are:

Frequency UHF: 450~470MHz
Channel Spacing 25 kHz
Frequency Deviation 4.5 kHz
Image Rejection >40dB
Data Transmission Rate 512/1200/2400bps for POCSAG
Receiving Sensitivity 512bps:-110dBm, 1200bps:-108dBm, 2400bps:-106dBm

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Babale

To those concerned about civilians getting a hold of these pagers, here are some comforting words from checks notes Nasrallah, leader of Hezbollah:

That’s 99% of my concern (the other 1% being whether this significantly widens the war–but I’m not seeing evidence that it is, in the same way that peeing in the the ocean isn’t making the ocean wetter). If it turns out that the civilian casualties were minimal, and that it disrupted the terrorist network significantly, that’s an overwhelmingly good thing.

[Darren_Garrison]

@Babale

Pretty much the only way to ensure death with a pager or phone sized device is if you’re targeting a single individual and waiting till you know he’s making a call (so presumably you also tap the phone). Even then, you’d need a phone with no bluetooth or speaker capability (or maybe you turn them off remotely and when he picks up the phone and says “hello, can you hear me now?” - kaboom!).

If I were designing them, I’d include a tiny vial of dimethylmercury with the explosives.

[gnoitall]

Chemical weapons would be a dangerous escalation.

[beowulff]

And result in a LOT of collateral damage.

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@puzzlegal

I’m dubious about anyone using pagers outside of fringe groups with special needs, like Hezbollah. I’m a little surprised you can still buy them.

This Is Why Doctors Still Use Pagers

@Darren_Garrison

If I were designing them, I’d include a tiny vial of dimethylmercury with the explosives.

Adding chemical weapons (and a horrific and indiscriminate lethal substance at that) does not ameliorate what is already arguably a war crime.

Stranger

[Babale]

@Stranger_On_A_Train

Adding chemical weapons (and a horrific and indiscriminate lethal substance at that) does not ameliorate what is already arguably a war crime .

Stranger

From the linked article:

The seemingly indiscriminate nature of the attacks

What a strange way to describe an attack that exclusively targeted Hezbollah agents.

[Der_Trihs]

@Alessan

In the end, maiming is more merciful than killing, is it not? A terrorist who lost a hand or an eye may no longer be able to shoot a gun, but they can still find gainful employment in a field other than terrorism.

It’s not more merciful, it means they are still alive to suffer and are an economic burden; that’s always been the point of crippling weapons. Same principle as using mines just powerful enough to blow off a leg but not kill.

And if anything it encourages terrorism, both by creating more people who want vengeance and lots of people who feel they have little to lose. Plus of course now they’ve been given a demonstration on how effective sticking bombs in consumer electronics is.

[Babale]

@Der_Trihs

And if anything it encourages terrorism,

Yeah, it might make them do something crazy, like fire thousands of rockets into Israel! Who could even imagine such a thing!

If someone is repeatedly trying to punch you, so you kick them in the nuts, and they shout “How dare you strike me, you fool! Now you’ll know my wrath!”, that rings a bit hollow.

[Der_Trihs]

@Babale

Yeah, it might make them do something crazy, like fire thousands of rockets into Israel!

I’m thinking more suicide bombers. Or simply returning the favor and planting bombs in consumer electronics.

Now that’s it’s been done on such a large scale I think you’ll start seeing all sorts of imitators, which will have long term socioeconomic effects on the world. Until now people didn’t need to worry that a new computer, microwave or phone might have a bomb hidden in it. Now, they will.

[TroutMan]

@Babale

What a strange way to describe an attack that exclusively targeted Hezbollah agents.

And yet it didn’t exclusively injure/kill Hezbollah agents, which is one of the reason that boobytraps like this are prohibited under international law.

[Babale]

@Der_Trihs

I’m thinking more suicide bombers.

Do you think they aren’t already trying their best to send bombers in? They’re just half assing it so far, but NOW they’re serious? Give me a fucking break.

@Der_Trihs

Now that’s it’s been done on such a large scale I think you’ll start seeing all sorts of imitators, which will have long term socioeconomic effects on the world. Until now people didn’t need to worry that a new computer, microwave or phone might have a bomb hidden in it. Now, they will.

So… are you saying they’re not smart enough to come up with the enormously compex idea of ‘stick bomb inside object’ without copying from Israel? I’m legitimately confused.

Hezbollah is already trying their best to blow up Israelis. They’ve been trying their best dozens of times per day since Oct 8. All this “but you might make them mad!” pearl clutching is complete nonsense.

[Babale]

@TroutMan

And yet it didn’t exclusively injure/kill Hezbollah agents,

As has been demonstrated endlessly in Gaza, neither do bombs dropped from planes or drones, or special forces guys going in on foot. There’s always collateral damage; in this case, all indications are that it has been very little.

[Der_Trihs]

@Babale

So… are you saying they’re not smart enough to come up with the enormously compex idea of ‘stick bomb inside object’ without copying from Israel?

It apparently didn’t occur to most people beforehand or this would have happened before. Now it has. And I now that the idea and its demonstration is out there I doubt it’ll stay confined to the region, it’s probably only a matter of time before people here in the US start being randomly killed by their appliances. The fact that so many people are arguing that it was a good idea will only encourage that.

[Dr.Strangelove]

@puzzlegal

I’m dubious about anyone using pagers outside of fringe groups with special needs, like Hezbollah.

I fired up my pager decoder and let it run for a while. Usage is way down compared to even 5 years ago, but the network is still going, and I still see a few messages here and there which are clearly from hospitals.

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@Babale

What a strange way to describe an attack that exclusively targeted Hezbollah agents.

Even assuming the pagers were purchased by Hezbollah specifically for their use, there is no way for Israeli intelligence to know who they are actually distributed to (including, as it appears, some medical personnel), or whether someone else not associated with Hezbollah might pick up a pager. While there is unavoidable potential for collateral damage with any lethal action, this is literally indiscriminate, i.e. not targeted at specific individuals or with any way for the user to control who may be affected, and as a lethal device concealed within device that a non-combatant could not identify as a hazard is pretty clearly prohibited as specified by Protocol II above. You may feel that Israel has the right to do to Hezbollah whatever they want since the terroristic attacks by that group are not only indiscriminate but actually target Israeli civilians but that doesn’t change whether the action is a war crime or not.

Of course, adding a cutaneously absorbed toxic organomercury compound which causes horrific suffering for weeks or month followed by death to be aerosolized and dispersed by the explosive charge as offered by @Darren_Garrison is absolutely indiscriminate and a war crime (or in more plain terms, mass murder) at a Vladimir Putin level of murderous intentionality, the ethical privation of which can’t even be fully explicated in this forum.

Stranger

[Chad_Sudan]

If it had been, for instance, the US putting explosives in 4,000 Al Qaeda pagers or walkie-talkies after Sept. 11, the overwhelming reaction would be how ingenious it was to launch such a tightly targeted attack.

[Babale]

@Der_Trihs

And I now that the idea and its demonstration is out there I doubt it’ll stay confined to the region, it’s probably only a matter of time before people here in the US start being randomly killed by their appliances.

I highly, highly, highly, highly, highly, highly doubt that.

[Chad_Sudan]

@Der_Trihs

it’s probably only a matter of time before people here in the US start being randomly killed by their appliances.

If someone uses this tactic so indiscriminately, that’s on them.

[Babale]

@Stranger_On_A_Train

Even assuming the pagers were purchased by Hezbollah specifically for their use,

Once again, people in the West make up arguments for Hezbollah that even Hezbollah themselves don’t use. Note that Nasrallah is proudly proclaiming that these were Hezbollah issued devices for Hezbollah members, yet here we are.

@Stranger_On_A_Train

there is no way for Israeli intelligence to know who they are actually distributed to (including, as it appears, some medical personnel),

Supposed ‘medical personnel’ who are actually terrorists? Who could even imagine such a thing? Oh, wait, we told you over and over again that this is how they act when Israel fought Hamas agents in hospitals.

@Stranger_On_A_Train

While there is unavoidable potential for collateral damage with any lethal action, this is literally indiscriminate, i.e. not targeted at specific individuals or with any way for the user to control who may be affected

Blowing up military equipment doesn’t target military personnel. Sure.

@Stranger_On_A_Train

You may feel that Israel has the right to do to Hezbollah whatever they want since the terroristic attacks by that group are not only indiscriminate but actually target Israeli civilians but that doesn’t change whether the action is a war crime or not.

Mhmm. Well, as you clearly eatablished, international law isn’t a set of instructions for how to act on the international stage, it is a cudgel to beat your enemies with:

@Stranger_On_A_Train

Of course, Hezbollah has no problem attacking civilians and conducting suicide bombings, but again, they are a non-state actor that is not subject to the international “laws of war” and international conventions where Israel ostensibly is.

How does the famous law go?

Conservatism International Law consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.