# Exploring the world in a large boat. Or, not so large. How safe were they really? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 14, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456 "2005-07-14T02:35:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/21 "2005-07-15T02:05:20Z")
Princhester > [@](#): > > An exaggeration Kevbo > [@](#): > > Definitely an exaggeration > [@](#): > > For lack of a practical method of determining longitude, every captain in the Age of Exploration became lost at sea despite the best available charts and compasses. From Vasco de Gama to Vasco Nunez de Balboa, from Ferdinand Magellan to Sir Francis Drake – they all got where they were going willy-nilly, by forces attributed to good luck or the grace of God… No ship owned a reliable means for establishing her whereabouts. In consequence, untold numbers of sailors died when their destinations suddenly loomed out of the sea and took them by surprise… > > _Longitude_ by Dava Sobel ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/22 "2005-07-15T02:17:58Z")
Despite the quote from Sobel, I have to agree with both \*\*Princhester \*\* and **Kevbo**. Sobel would seem to be greatly exaggerating in order to emphasize the theme of his book. Navigators of the Age of Exploration certainly didn’t get where they were going willy-nilly. Although they may sometimes have gotten lost, more often than not they had a pretty good idea of where they were, through compass, sextant, dead reckoning, and wind and current patterns. Columbus in particular was an excellent dead-reckoning navigator. Of course, the likelihood of becoming lost was greater when one was in waters that had never been explored before. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/23 "2005-07-15T02:29:06Z")
I have always wondered something about these old fleets. Take Columbus for example and his famous three ships on the first voyage. Did they stay close together the whole time? How did they communticate? Did Columbus stay on one ship the whole time or did he take a row boat to different ones? Haj ---
**Author:** ![CBCD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@CBCD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBCD)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/24 "2005-07-15T02:44:14Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > -cough- Tough words from someone who lives on the Jersey Shore. 😉 Wait, you talk like an ocean full of monsters is a bad thing! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/25 "2005-07-15T02:48:42Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I have always wondered something about these old fleets. Take Columbus for example and his famous three ships on the first voyage. Did they stay close together the whole time? How did they communticate? Did Columbus stay on one ship the whole time or did he take a row boat to different ones? > > Haj A small exploring fleet such as Columbus’ would make every effort to stay together, so that in case of trouble one ship could come to the aid of another. They were able to observe each other’s position at night by lights. They sometimes were close enough to communicate by hailing; otherwise they would signal to each other. Columbus normally stayed on his own flagship. Usually the other captains would come to his ship if necessary. If a fleet got dispersed in bad weather, they would have no way to link up again except by chance. In known waters, however, they could set up a rendezvous where separated ships could rejoin each other. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/26 "2005-07-15T11:57:23Z")
> [@CBCD](#): > > Wait, you talk like an ocean full of monsters is a bad thing! 😉 I gots six woids for youse: Badda bing Badda bang Badda boom. 😃 **Colibri** , your post raises another question. If three ships commanded by Columbus ran the real risk of losing eachother over the horizon as they sailed along, how in the heck did truly large fleets manage to do their work? I would guess that a large fleet wishes to assemble itself near the enemy port, or enemy fleet in a certain pattern and attack in a certain manner. How can this be accomplished at all when the commander of say, a 9 ship ( see? I said ship ! ) fleet cannot see all of his ships at once?? It does occur to me that one would need to be a pretty adept seaman to be cooking along in the open ocean and keeping one’s self physically close enough to the other ships that one could communicate by hailing- and not bump into your sister ships. Having been on large sailing ships for day trips, it seems to me that the sheer background white noise/pounding of swell on hull generates enough noise to make hailing difficult unless one is stuck in the doldrums. No? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/27 "2005-07-15T12:14:49Z")
a related issue: I’ve always heard that the first Spaniards to reach N.America brought with them horses, which the natives had never seen before. But if the ships were as small as they were–how did they fit in the horses and a couple month’s supply of hay? (A typical Amish barn is much bigger than those ships) How many men did it take to conquer the Incas? And how many horses? How did they all get there in little ships the size of a modern railroad car? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Goob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c77e96/32.png) [@Mr.Goob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Goob)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/28 "2005-07-15T13:20:26Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > **Colibri** , your post raises another question. If three ships commanded by Columbus ran the real risk of losing eachother over the horizon as they sailed along, how in the heck did truly large fleets manage to do their work? I would guess that a large fleet wishes to assemble itself near the enemy port, or enemy fleet in a certain pattern and attack in a certain manner. How can this be accomplished at all when the commander of say, a 9 ship ( see? I said ship ! ) fleet cannot see all of his ships at once?? Flags and signals are an art to themselves. In the Aubrey/Maturin or Hornblower novels you often see the Captain barking at a midshipman to read the signal flags. There were huge pre planned combinations of flags that you could almost carry on a full conversation. A lot of the battles were as pre planned as the Senior Captian or Admiral would have a meeting with his other Captains beforhand to shake out who would do what. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/29 "2005-07-15T14:27:16Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > That would be Cape Bojador, which explorer Gil Eannes passed in 1434. Really? Wow! There’s a reason why Cape Bojador was avoided by early sailors. According to [Skeletons on the Zahara](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0316835145/qid=1121437436/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-7885609-5330502?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), Cape Bojador is uniquely situated on the western African coast - currents travelling between Africa and the Canary Islands travel directly towards the Cape, and a captain who’s unlucky enough to get caught up in them quickly can find himself shipwrecked. To successfully pass Cape Bojador, you’ve got to sail west past or through the Canaries, well away from the mainland coast, then travel south past the Cape’s outcroppings. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/30 "2005-07-15T15:14:34Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > How can this be accomplished at all when the commander of say, a 9 ship ( see? I said ship ! ) fleet cannot see all of his ships at once?? For large, spread out fleets, you would position smaller ships (often frigates) to repeat signals. And remember that from a lookout on a 100 foot mast, the horizon is [12 or so miles away, and you can see the mast of an equivalent ship at a distance of almost 25 miles.](http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Horizon) ---
**Author:** ![CBCD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@CBCD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBCD)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/31 "2005-07-15T15:54:10Z")
For all the exploration that has been done of the ocean’s surface, suprisingly little of the deepest parts of the ocean have been visited. \ So few people know that man has visited the deepest part of the worlds oceans, Challenger Deep in the Mariana’s Trench, just once. In 1960. For 20 minutes.[Man has visited the deepest part of the worlds oceans, Challenger Deep in the Mariana’s Trench, just once. In 1960. For 20 minutes.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/uss_trieste) ---
**Author:** ![Hombre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecb155/32.png) [@Hombre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hombre)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/32 "2005-07-16T04:03:25Z")
Great thread! Little Nemo’s thread got me to thinking… During a naval battle at sea, didn’t cannons fire above the waterline and if so why would the repairs need to be urgent? ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/33 "2005-07-16T05:36:56Z")
> [@Hombre](#): > > Great thread! > > Little Nemo’s thread got me to thinking… > During a naval battle at sea, didn’t cannons fire above the waterline and if so why would the repairs need to be urgent? Sailing ships heel (tilt) as they tack. So part of the hull would be above water on one tack, and below water on the opposite tack. Because of this, shots could hole a ship below the waterline, even if you ignore the possibility that a shot could travel underwater for a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/34 "2005-07-16T12:27:54Z")
> [@Can Handle the Truth](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > For lack of a practical method of determining longitude, every captain in the Age of Exploration became lost at sea despite the best available charts and compasses. From Vasco de Gama to Vasco Nunez de Balboa, from Ferdinand Magellan to Sir Francis Drake – they all got where they were going willy-nilly, by forces attributed to good luck or the grace of God… No ship owned a reliable means for establishing her whereabouts. In consequence, untold numbers of sailors died when their destinations suddenly loomed out of the sea and took them by surprise… > > > > Longitude by Dava Sobel In the next chapter (I’ve read it too), he goes on to say: > [@](#): > > …sea captains of the 15, 16 and 17 C relied on “dead reckoning” to guage their distance east or west of home port…" He goes on to describe methods used. There’s no doubt they weren’t reliable methods, but to suggest it was all luck is a gross exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/35 "2005-07-16T12:37:21Z")
Sorry, hit reply too early. In fact, Sobel’s narrative style throughout his book is to make a few somewhat overblown introductory remarks before going on to a more sober and detailed discussion of the next topic of his book. > [@Little Nemo](#): > > Damage, yes. But a wooden ship is much harder to sink than a metal one. In a battle between wooden ships, hull damage was considered routine; many ships took numerous breaches through their sides and kept fighting. But in a metal ship any hull breach is a major crisis and must be addressed immediately; left to itself it will sink the ship. Untrue. A hole below the waterline in either type of ship is a major crisis for the reasons **Finagle** has set out so well. Though I do have one nitpick: > [@Finagle](#): > > (The reason that the wooden vessels were hard to sink in battle was that they were getting shot with relatively tiny projectiles – even a heavy shot is only a few inches in diameter. So the holes were small and the ships were large, giving reasonable amounts of time for carpenters to plug the holes and for the pumps to work.) The other (and in fact as I understand it) major reason was that the object was often not to sink, but to disable the other ship. Ships were valuable. If you aimed above the waterline, and fired shot designed to cut ropes and spars, there was a good chance you’d make the other ship helpless. Then they’d surrender and you’d have a prize. Booty all round. ---
**Author:** ![Foaming\_Cleanser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Foaming\_Cleanser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foaming_Cleanser)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/36 "2005-07-16T13:36:19Z")
For a real treat, read Over the Edge of the World: Magellan’s Terrifying Circumnavigation of the Globe, by Laurence Bergreen. Bergreen’s account opens a window into the world of the time: the politics, the cruelties, the fears, the bravery, the greed — and the seamanship. I couldn’t put the book down. ---
**Author:** ![John\_T.Conklin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_t.conklin/32/3307_2.png) [@John\_T.Conklin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_T.Conklin)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/37 "2005-07-16T19:09:53Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > He goes on to describe methods used. There’s no doubt they weren’t reliable methods, but to suggest it was all luck is a gross exaggeration. One nit, Dava Sobel is female… ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2005, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456/38 "2005-07-17T08:01:08Z")
Forgot that, thanks John [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exploring-the-world-in-a-large-boat-or-not-so-large-how-safe-were-they-really/312456.md?page=1)