# Extend PATRIOT Act? Moyers has 'scoop' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 8, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605 "2003-02-08T00:10:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/1 "2003-02-08T00:10:03Z")
[Left-wing journalist Bill Moyers claims to have a scoop regarding the PATRIOT Act.](http://www.pbs.org/now/) I’ll be reading it now, but put me down as a “no.” There are multiple PDFs to read, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Pencil\_Pusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Pencil\_Pusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pencil_Pusher)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/2 "2003-02-08T01:07:52Z")
The center for public integrity is probably the source [http://www.public-i.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=502&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0&L5=0](http://www.public-i.org/dtaweb/report.asp?ReportID=502&L1=10&L2=10&L3=0&L4=0&L5=0) ---
**Author:** ![MrTuffPaws](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MrTuffPaws](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrTuffPaws)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/3 "2003-02-08T01:46:18Z")
Holy crapatola, if this passes, they will be able to take away your citizenship for terrorist acts. Plus, they will be able to define what a terrorist act is. If this passes and does not get overturned by the judicial branch, I will lose what little faith I have left for checks and balances. ---
**Author:** ![3waygeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/e95f7d/32.png) [@3waygeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3waygeek)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/4 "2003-02-08T01:47:05Z")
I wish I could say I was surprised by this. Too bad I can’t ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Pencil\_Pusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Pencil\_Pusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pencil_Pusher)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/5 "2003-02-08T02:07:56Z")
MrTuffPaws, that may be true, but since he is also re-writing the FOIA, you won’t know about it. /e wonders when Ashcroft will define “Terrorist Act” as voting against Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/6 "2003-02-08T03:00:01Z")
Holy Cow! I will have to plow through this…I think it may be the first law that would allow for revocation of citizenship for something other thn fraud in obtaining it. This scares the crap out of me…when I’m back at work on Monday, I’ll let y’all know what the American Immigration Lawyers’ Association has to say about it. I’m sure they’ll have a few choice words. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/7 "2003-02-08T03:07:47Z")
Watching the Moyers show on PBS. Talk about your multi-media. Lets meet to talk after! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/8 "2003-02-08T03:26:13Z")
Jesus Horatio Christ. I just watched the Moyers report. Jesus Horatio Christ. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/9 "2003-02-08T03:39:57Z")
Does the Constitution define or protect citizenship? How much are tickets to New Zealand? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/10 "2003-02-08T03:41:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > Left-wing journalist Bill Moyers claims to have a scoop regarding the PATRIOT Act. So protecting one’s Constitutional Rights from government abuse is now left wing? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/11 "2003-02-08T03:47:21Z")
Here is a transcript of the discussion on the show… [http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript\_lewis2.html](http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_lewis2.html) What are we coming to? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/12 "2003-02-08T03:55:53Z")
I’ve wanted to mention this several times: Whether Ashcroft is lying or truly well intentioned, do you think the Germans knew they were being lied to before WWII? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/13 "2003-02-08T04:10:10Z")
> [@](#): > > So protecting one’s Constitutional Rights from government abuse is now left wing? Nope. I just like to admit the source’s bias up front. Nobody has to point it out. Moyers is left-wing, right? Anyway, I’m ‘left’ on civil liberties - striving always to not be a screwhead. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/14 "2003-02-08T04:17:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by carnivorousplant \* > \*\*Does the Constitution define or protect citizenship? > > \*\* Amendment 14: “Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the UNited States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immuniites of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” I swear, just a minute ago I saw something in my darn Constitution pamphlet about Congress having the power to regulate naturalization (cut me some slack; I’ve had almost an entire glass of wine, which affects me like a whole bottle would affect a normal person), but it’s pretty well-established in case law that naturalizations don’t get revoked unless they were grandted erroneously, such as when they were granted as a result of fraud. If anyone takes issue with this analysis, they’ll have to wait until Monday when I’m back at work for a more definitive answer. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/15 "2003-02-08T04:37:40Z")
Tomorrow, or the next day, they’ll deny everything. It never happened, its an exaggeration, it’s all a fraud, a hoax put up by disloyal elements to embarass the Administration. You know those guys will say anything to discredit truly loyal Americans. After all, if they’re not guilty, if they’re truly loyal, what have they to be afraid of? Real Americans don’t fear authority. Real Americans love authority. Real Americans…Real Americans… Is there a term for _deja vu_ when its a nightmare? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/16 "2003-02-08T04:54:26Z")
So elucidator, having read your little Moyer’s transcript, there is still no evidence that this alleged proposed law will allow the gummint to deport citizens. Do you care to retract that portion of your “arguement”, or do you want your **lie** to flutter about in the wind, for all to see? Either way is Ok with me, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Pencil\_Pusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Pencil\_Pusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pencil_Pusher)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/17 "2003-02-08T05:15:11Z")
From the Center for Public Integrity > [@](#): > > Section 501, “Expatriation of Terrorists”: This provision, the drafters say, would establish that an American citizen could be expatriated “if, with the intent to relinquish his nationality, he **becomes a member of, or provides material support to** , a group that the United Stated has designated as a ‘terrorist organization’.” But whereas a citizen formerly had to state his intent to relinquish his citizenship, the new law affirms that his intent can be “inferred from conduct.” Thus, engaging in the lawful activities of a group designated as a “terrorist organization” by the Attorney General could be presumptive grounds for expatriation. I wonder if becoming a member of shein fein (sp?), the “political wing” of the IRA is enough to get you declared “Not American Enough.” I wonder if Ashcroft can just declare that the Black Panthers or Greenpeace is a terrorist organization. Is writing a letter to the editor that states the Black Panthers were instrumental in the struggle for racial equality and urging everyone to learn from their organization “providing material support”? Worst. Administration. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/18 "2003-02-08T05:23:34Z")
So how does an American citizen, born and bred in their own country, become a non-citizen under this leaked draft? Expatriate where? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/19 "2003-02-08T05:25:45Z")
Sorry, **milroyj** , I was distracted from your petty slander by **pencil pushers** quote above. You were saying something about how I was a liar? Please, dont let me interrupt while you tickle your tonsils with your toes. By the way, how do you manage to stuff your foot in your mouth with your head up your ass? Yoga? ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/20 "2003-02-08T05:33:38Z")
Current law………… > [@](#): > > “Under the statute as it now reads, there are seven types of acts that can result in loss of citizenship. They are: (1) naturalization in a foreign state after the age of 18; (2) taking an oath of allegiance to a foreign state or subdivision after the age of 18; (3) serving in the armed forces of a foreign state, under certain circumstances; (4) taking a government job with another country, under certain circumstances; (5) renouncing nationality in the prescribed form before a U.S. diplomatic or consular officer abroad; (6) renouncing in time of war, upon approval of the Attorney General; (7) committing an act of treason or other seditious act specified in the statute.” > > _INA Sec.349(a), 8 USC Sec.1481(a)_ > > “To result in expatriation, however, the act specified in the statute must not only be voluntary, but done ``with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality…………Although the act is presumed to be voluntary, the presumption is rebuttable.\*19 Moreover, if the loss of nationality is put in issue, the party claiming that the expatriation occurred, has the burden of establishing the claim by a preponderance of the evidence.” > > “However, an act under any of the first five provisions of this subsection does not result in expatriation if done while the individual is in the United States, unless and until the individual ``takes up a residence outside the United States and its outlying possessions.’’ INA Sec.351(a), 8 USC Sec.1483(a). Moreover, nationality is not lost because of military service, as specified in subparagraph (3), or renunciation abroad, as specified in subparagraph (5), by those under the age of eighteen who assert their claim to U.S. nationality within six months after their 18th birthday, in the manner prescribed. INA Sec.351(b), 8 USC Sec.1483(b).” _New York Law Journal, April, 1995_ Just so we know what we’re talking about. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605.md?page=2)