# Extend PATRIOT Act? Moyers has 'scoop' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 8, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605 "2003-02-08T00:10:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pencil\_Pusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Pencil\_Pusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pencil_Pusher)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/21 "2003-02-08T05:34:14Z")
Follow the center for public integrity link given in the second post on this thread. The draft law is a 12MB download. I presume they will Expatriate people whereever the hell they want. Just look at what they did to Maher Arar ( [http://cbc.ca/storyview/CBC/2002/10/16/arar021016](http://cbc.ca/storyview/CBC/2002/10/16/arar021016) ) (Best I can tell, Maher Arar “knew” – was not friends, was not business partners – a guy who may or may not have had ties to Al Queda. The U.S. Government had no proof Maher Arar did anything wrong. This really annoyed the U.S. Government, so after pulling him off a plane where he was making a connecting flight in JFK from Tunisia to Montreal, they decided to “expatriate” him, not to Tunisia, where he was comming from, not to Canada, where he holds citizenship, but Syria, which he fled from as a child. As a result, the Canadian government issued a travel advisory warning to Canadian citizens traveling through the United States ( [http://www.cnn.com/2002/TRAVEL/10/30/canada.us.travel/](http://www.cnn.com/2002/TRAVEL/10/30/canada.us.travel/) ). Last I heard, Maher Arar was rotting away in a Syrian Prison. Did I mention Worst. Administration. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/22 "2003-02-08T05:37:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Sorry, **milroyj** , I was distracted from your petty slander by **pencil pushers** quote above. You were saying something about how I was a liar? Please, dont let me interrupt while you tickle your tonsils with your toes. By the way, how do you manage to stuff your foot in your mouth with your head up your ass? Yoga? \*\* When did the rule against personal insults in GD get relaxed? Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/23 "2003-02-08T05:39:02Z")
Anybody wonder what the Freepers are saying about this? I’d go check, but I haven’t had all my shots… ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/24 "2003-02-08T05:42:38Z")
So **Pencil Pusher** …it would appear that **if** this not actually proposed legislation passed, and **if** shein fein were designated a terrorist organization, and if one joined shein fein **with the intent to relinquish his nationality** then one could, indeed, lose one’s citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Pencil\_Pusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Pencil\_Pusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pencil_Pusher)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/25 "2003-02-08T05:50:35Z")
So, the jack-booted thugs break down your door, haul you away and put you in front of …what? an INS judge? a military tribunal?.. claiming that your intent can be inferred from your actions. You protest, but, but I love this country (well, you thought you did). Is this your signature on this Shen Fein membership card? Well, yes. There it is, your honor, don’t believe his terrorist lies. Wait, don’t I get an attorney? Sorry, only American Citizens have a right to counsel. But, but, I’ve never been outside this country before. Don’t worry, we have reached an agreement with the Syrian government, they will put all of our deportees in jail for us, no questions asked. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/26 "2003-02-08T05:55:05Z")
Not quite, **zigaretten** Close, but no cigar (ha!) One can also lose one’s citizenship if it is decided that one’s behavior implies an intent to reliquish one’s nationality, which I take to mean if one’s behavior is “disloyal”. As determined by the proper authorities, of course. Someone like, oh, say, the Attorney General. Somebody leaked this. Somebody with solid brass _cojones_. May the good Lord bless him/her all the days of his/her life. I dont want to know the name, I want him/her to get away scot free. But we should put up a Statue of the Unknown Snitch, in honor of a real American! _J’ais vous salut!!_ ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/27 "2003-02-08T05:59:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zigaretten \* > \*\*Current law………… > _New York Law Journal, April, 1995_ > Just so we know what we’re talking about. \*\* So how does this fit in with: > [@](#): > > On 14 November 1986, President Reagan signed Public Law 99-653 (100 Stat. 3655; 1986 U.S. Code Congressional and Administrative News 6182). This bill amended the INA to conform to the requirements of various Supreme Court decisions on loss of US citizenship. > > The most significant change made by Pub.L. 99-653 was to the preamble of Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act [8 USC § 1481]. The revised wording made it clear that an action, in order to result in loss of citizenship, needed to be performed voluntarily and with the intention of giving up US citizenship. This change brought the law into line with the Supreme Court’s ruling in Vance v. Terrazas. > > Pub.L. 99-653 also revised the conditions under which foreign military service could result in loss of citizenship. Previously, a person could lose US citizenship through foreign military service unless said service were approved in advance by US officials. Also, a US citizen who entered a foreign military service prior to age 18 could lose his US citizenship if he had been given an option by said foreign country to leave its army at age 18, and failed to do so. All this was replaced by a new provision, under which foreign military service would result in loss of US citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with intent to relinquish US ties (see above) – and, additionally, only if the person served as an officer, and/or if the foreign army were engaged in hostilities against the US. Note that the Supreme Court had previously ruled, in Mandoli v. Acheson, that coerced foreign military service could not result in loss of US citizenship. > > Previously, if a US citizen were also a citizen of a foreign country, had spent one or more periods of time in that country totalling at least ten years, and performed any of the listed actions that could result in loss of US citizenship, the action in question would be conclusively presumed to have been performed voluntarily and without duress (i.e., the person in question would not have a legal right to present contrary evidence in a court case). This provision had been put on shaky ground as a result of the Terrazas ruling, and it was repealed by Pub.L. 99-653. > > Prior to Pub.L. 99-653, a naturalized citizen who moved away from the US and set up permanent residence abroad within five years following naturalization risked revocation of his citizenship – on the grounds that his promise (made on the citizenship application) to reside permanently in the US after naturalization had been made in bad faith. This five-year period was reduced to one year. (In 1994, this provision was repealed altogether.) Source: [http://www.richw.org/dualcit/law.html#1986](http://www.richw.org/dualcit/law.html#1986) ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/28 "2003-02-08T06:02:12Z")
Notices that the major news outlets have not picked up on this. Control the media and you control the country. Well…it’s actually control the money. But the media works too. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/29 "2003-02-08T06:02:41Z")
What upsets me about all this is that it is as though people just wait for the right moment to launch an assault on the average person’s basic rights. Imagine that. Did constitutional rights really enable the September 11 hijackers? No, not really. They had few rights under the old regime. Only bureaucratic malaise prevented the CIA and FBI from catching them. They had to ignore warnings from their own field agents. So, in light of all this, they propose to attack the constitutional rights of suspects on every level and to carve a new gaping set of exceptions in the law for “terrorism.” Square hole, meet giant round peg. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/30 "2003-02-08T06:05:29Z")
I have the firm belief that Bush & Co. wanted to do this all along. The irony is 911 gave them the hook to actually get this crap passed (PATRIOT Act I) and now this draft legislation. ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/31 "2003-02-08T06:16:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > Not quite, **zigaretten** Close, but no cigar (ha!) One can also lose one’s citizenship if it is decided that one’s behavior implies an intent to reliquish one’s nationality, which I take to mean if one’s behavior is “disloyal”. As determined by the proper authorities, of course. Someone like, oh, say, the Attorney General. Are you refering to something “new” or to provision 7 in the current law: "committing an act of treason or other seditious act specified in the statute.” Both require an “intent to relinquish one’s nationality.” I agree with you that we have some changes here and I’m not going to pretend that I understand exactly what these changes are. (IANAL) Under the current law the state appears to be required to prove that the “act” was voluntary. But I’m not certain about the “intent to relinquish” part. **Pencil Pusher’s** quote says that the state can “infer” the intent from the “act,” but doesn’t address the question of who has to prove what or what standard of proof is required. (I was surprised by that “preponderance of the evidence” bit.) **Duckster** …I’m just catching you on preview so I read a little fast, but I don’t see any disagreement between our cites. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/32 "2003-02-08T06:17:04Z")
Reading the PBS transcript, I was pretty frightened, or as Marge Simpson would put it, “I am very dissapointed and terrified.” I think this part was what bothered me the most: > [@](#): > > MOYERS: The House Judiciary Committee actually asked the FBI a few months ago how it has used the new powers that had been given to it under the Patriot Act. And the Justice department said, “We can’t tell you that information, it’s classified.” > > And this prompted then-Congressman then Bob Barr, from Georgia, another conservative, by the way, he said the attitude of the Justice Department seems to be that even Congress isn’t entitled to know how they are using the authority that Congress gave them. > > LEWIS: It’s incredible. I mean, if Congress doesn’t have oversight over the Justice Department and these programs, who does? That’s how it’s supposed to work in our constitution and in our set up for government. > > MOYERS: That’s one of your real concerns, isn’t it? That there’s no oversight when secrecy is this tight. > > LEWIS: Absolutely. The Congress is the people’s chance to monitor the executive branch. That is the only… it is the closest branch of government to the people. The House members are up for election every two years. If the House of Representatives and the Congress in general cannot keep a watch on the executive branch and cannot be informed about their activities. There’s something very serious here. ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/33 "2003-02-08T06:59:43Z")
Here’s a little more from the _New York Law Journal_… > [@](#): > > See Vance v. Terrazas…reasserting the Afroyim principle…that loss of U.S. citizenship must entail the intention to surrender the citizenship **`whether the intent is expressed in words or is found as a fair inference from proven conduct’’** …and sustaining the `preponderance'' standard, against the 7th Circuit finding.............that a `clear and convincing’’ standard of proof was constitutionally mandated.’’ So…this suggests, to me at least, that the state can already infer one’s intent from one’s acts. But Vance v. Terrazas dates to 1980, so something may have changed since then. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/34 "2003-02-08T08:53:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pencil Pusher \* > \*\*I presume they will Expatriate people whereever the hell they want. Just look at what they did to Maher Arar ( [http://cbc.ca/storyview/CBC/2002/10/16/arar021016](http://cbc.ca/storyview/CBC/2002/10/16/arar021016) ) \*\* [hijack] The story of Maher Arar is a true and awful one, but you are confusing expatriation in the sense of physical removal from the U.S. with expatriation in the sense of losing one’s U.S. citizenship. However, they are definitely related issues, and both provide evidence of the current administration’s “might makes right, and we can do whatever we want if we can disguise our actions with even the thinnest veneer of self-defense.” ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/35 "2003-02-08T13:27:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > By the way, how do you manage to stuff your foot in your mouth with your head up your ass? Yoga? **Moderator’s Note:** **elucidator** , do NOT post personal insults in Great Debates again. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/36 "2003-02-08T13:41:55Z")
Too bad the attorney general is appointed by the executive branch. I wish the AG was another check on the powers of the powers that be. Because no matter what unholy crap is enforced it is more or less legal until it is ruled otherwise through the judicial process. We just have to count on the grace and goodwill of our executive branch. Maybe the Mail Order Militia has some good points. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/37 "2003-02-08T15:21:47Z")
Well, the groundwork has already been laid in the SCOTUS. There has been considerable blather emanating from the Gang of Five as to justifying the abrogation of individual rights in a time of crisis. Of course, the underlying assumption is that they’ll give 'em right back just as soon as the crisis is over. And the crisis will be over when they say its over. Goody. That’s certainly a relief. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/38 "2003-02-08T16:23:56Z")
Here is another source for information about [Patriot Act II](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-patriot8feb08001442,1,4583035.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dnation). But, hey, this only applies to bad guys, right? If you don’t do things that displease _Fuehrers_ Bush, Rumsfeld, or Ashcroft you have nothing to worry about, right? ---
**Author:** ![Pencil\_Pusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Pencil\_Pusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pencil_Pusher)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/39 "2003-02-08T16:46:51Z")
**MEBuckner** , your “post” is complete **twaddle**. Do you want to make another feeble attempt? Okay, I really don’t mean it – I am just trying to make a point. Sorry for the hijack, but how can something like the above, putting quotes around a word to indicate derision, bolding another word to punctuate an insult, and then continuing with a mocking tone be okay? Didn’t you read the above sentance and feel insulted (or, at least, that an insult was directed towards you)? What is the justification in publicly chastising one party in an exchange, and not the other who was clearly an instigator? Or, are you stating your approval of the above tactics? Can I start deriding people by characterizing their “arguments” as **lies** with impunity? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/40 "2003-02-08T17:49:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pencil Pusher \* > **MEBuckner** , your “post” is complete **twaddle**. Do you want to make another feeble attempt? **Pencil Pusher** , read the fine print under **MEBuckner’s** name. Here, I’ll use a magnifying glass for you: **MEBuckner Moderator** \<--------- Especially this part. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605.md?page=3)