# Extend PATRIOT Act? Moyers has 'scoop' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 8, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605 "2003-02-08T00:10:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/41 "2003-02-08T17:55:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zigaretten \* > **Duckster** …I’m just catching you on preview so I read a little fast, but I don’t see any disagreement between our cites. OK, but I really do what to know that under this draft, can an American citizen be expatriated if they are born and bred in the USA? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/42 "2003-02-08T18:04:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*So elucidator, having read your little Moyer’s transcript, there is still no evidence that this alleged proposed law will allow the gummint to deport citizens. \*\* Of course, you HAVE read the actual text of the proposed law, right? ---
**Author:** ![Pencil\_Pusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Pencil\_Pusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pencil_Pusher)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/43 "2003-02-08T18:09:00Z")
Duckster, what an **irrelevant** “observation” you made. Isn’t it painfully obvious that the reason I asked MEBuckner the question was precisely because he is a moderator? Gee, I can really get used to this style of reply. Almost like a Haiku in its format. One bold, one quotation, followed by a taunt. Very Zen. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/44 "2003-02-08T18:10:12Z")
Let us not forget that this proposed law also permits secret arrests. Knock on the door in the middle of the night. You disappear. Nobody is ever informed of your whereabouts again. You have simply ceased to exist. Under the proposed law, this would be 100% legal. There will be no appeal. There will be no possibility of appeal. Welcome to the new Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/45 "2003-02-08T18:44:28Z")
Boy, this is a quandry. Can’t very well let **Pencil** stick up for me while I sit quietly (BTW: thanks), that would be chickenshit. On the other hand, I’m inclined to shrug it off. On more than one occassion, posters (one Unamed One in particular) have siezed me by the lapels and shrieked “Liar!” in my face till the veins throbbed in his neck. It would seem that, indeed, that is acceptable. In the past, questions of this type have been answered in “my way or the highway” fashion. So, maybe we just say “liar” is ok, “head up and locked” isn’t, and just forget it. Thanks, anyway. Forget it, **Pencil**. It’s Chinatown. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/46 "2003-02-08T18:58:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duckster \* > \*\*OK, but I really do what to know that under this draft, can an American citizen be expatriated if they are born and bred in the USA? \*\* To me, this isn’t even the most relevant part. There is supposed to be no material distinction among U.S. citizens; even a naturalized citizen is not supposed to be able to be deported unless it can be proved that citizenship was granted either through error or by fraud on the part of the applicant. And even then, there are elaborate layers of checks and balances. That’s why it takes so long to deport Nazi war criminals; their citizenship has to be stripped in Federal court first (the idea being that they gained citizenship by fraud, as one is not eligible if one has engaged in the persecution of others, so they never should have gotten green cards in the first place for lying on their iniital applicaitons to enter as Displaced Persons after WWII). The moment we start distinguishing between citizens based on the accident of their place of birth (and I’m not talking about the extremely limited exception of eligibility for the Presidency; I’m not crazy about theat distinction either, but can at least understand the practical reasons for it), we are no longer a country I can support morally. ---
**Author:** ![Jello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@Jello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jello)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/47 "2003-02-08T18:58:34Z")
Upon perusal of the PDF of the actual draft bill, these were the sections that stood out: **Section 201, as well as most of the rest of Title II (beginning on page 13)** Allows the government to keep detainees secret. Combine with Section 501, and “disappear” is now officially a verb. **Section 404 (page 22)** Sentences “no fewer than 5 years” in prison anyone who uses encryption technology to commit or cover up a crime, and encourages ISPs to gives the government the decryption information. This isn’t that nefarious (if the people involved are actually committing crimes…), but an extra five years just for using legal technology to do something illegal just seems strange. **Section 501 (page 30)** Expatriation of terrorists. “This provision also would make explicit that the intent to relinquish nationality need not be manifested in words, but can be inferred from conduct.” ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/48 "2003-02-08T19:00:48Z")
\*\*Jello, \*\* I’ll read the draft eventually, but in the meantime, does Section 501 say anything about what kind of conduct might lead to an inference that one intends to relinquish one’s nationality? ---
**Author:** ![Jello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@Jello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jello)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/49 "2003-02-08T19:06:22Z")
It quotes King v. Rogers (9th circuit, 1972) as saying “Specific subjective intent to renounce US citizenship…may be proved…by evidence of an explicit renunciation, acts inconststent with United States citizenship, or by affirmative voluntary act[s] clearly manifesting a decision to accept [foreign] nationality.” It goes on to say, “Specifically, this proposal would make service in a hostile army or terrorist group prima facie evidence of an intent to renounce citizenship.” ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/50 "2003-02-08T19:21:30Z")
That sucks rocks! People, especially in unfriendly regimes, don’t always get to make meaningful choices about military service…by the bit you’ve quoted, then, someone born in the U.S., who was taken back to Iraq by his parents and is now 18, could be drafted to fight against the U.S. and lose the citizenship he was entitled to at birth! If you take it even further, it sounds like naturalizing in another country may return to the point where it is construed as evidence of intent to renounce U.S. citizenship…and here I thought we’d gotten to the point where we acknowledged that U.S. citizens sometimehave good reasons for having dual nationality… I’ll post what I’m sure is going to be some scathing commentary from the American Immigration Lawyers Association when I get back to work next week. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/51 "2003-02-08T19:45:27Z")
Look on the bright side. The expatriation should make it easier to be granted political asylum in countries that are difficult to immigrate to.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Back\_Lot\_Brawl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Back\_Lot\_Brawl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Back_Lot_Brawl)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/52 "2003-02-08T19:48:02Z")
Is there anyone here who thinks this plan IS a good idea? Having lurked for a while, I know this board tends to lean to the left, but not a single person posting in favor of it? I don’t see any problem with it from what I read in the links – am I the only one? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/53 "2003-02-08T19:53:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > **So, maybe we just say “liar” is ok, “head up and locked” isn’t, and just forget it. Thanks, anyway.** Except I never called you a liar, at least not in GD. I called your premise a lie, which it was. > [@](#): > > What with rumors of a new law allowing American citizens to be deported… The rumoured new law purports to expatriate those who have voluntarily given up their citizenship by serving in a hostile army or terrorist group. See? Not citizens, but those who have voluntarily given their citizenship up. Your original claim about “citizens being deported” is nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/54 "2003-02-08T19:59:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pencil Pusher \* > **I presume they will Expatriate people whereever the hell they want. Just look at what they did to Maher Arar ( [http://cbc.ca/storyview/CBC/2002/10/16/arar021016](http://cbc.ca/storyview/CBC/2002/10/16/arar021016) ) (Best I can tell, Maher Arar “knew” – was not friends, was not business partners – a guy who may or may not have had ties to Al Queda. The U.S. Government had no proof Maher Arar did anything wrong. This really annoyed the U.S. Government, so after pulling him off a plane where he was making a connecting flight in JFK from Tunisia to Montreal, they decided to “expatriate” him, not to Tunisia, where he was comming from, not to Canada, where he holds citizenship, but Syria, which he fled from as a child. As a result, the Canadian government issued a travel advisory warning to Canadian citizens traveling through the United States ( [http://www.cnn.com/2002/TRAVEL/10/30/canada.us.travel/](http://www.cnn.com/2002/TRAVEL/10/30/canada.us.travel/) ). Last I heard, Maher Arar was rotting away in a Syrian Prison.** Arar is not an American citizen. elucidator claimed that under his rumoured new law, American citizens would be deported. Not true. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/55 "2003-02-08T20:04:55Z")
> [@](#): > > The rumoured new law purports to expatriate those who have voluntarily given up their citizenship by serving in a hostile army or terrorist group. > > See? Not citizens, but those who have voluntarily given their citizenship up. Your original claim about “citizens being deported” is nonsense. Well, the article notes that the administration wants to be able to _infer_ the voluntary giving up of citizenship based on their _interpretations_ of activities in situations that are decided, apparently _without legal counsel or actual trials_. While it may be argued that the government would _never_ abuse that power (as they are already doing in the case of natural born citizen, Jose Padilla), or that the article overstates the proposal that the government is actually making, **elucidator** ’s claim, while disputable, does not qualify as a lie. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/56 "2003-02-08T20:35:53Z")
So deliberately making a claim that one knows to be false, is not a lie? luci said American citizens would be deported, the article he cited did not. Or is this distortion of the facts now a “rhetorical device”, or some such? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/57 "2003-02-08T20:44:46Z")
So, is that like fainting with damn praise? Gotta remember that “premise” dodge, that’ll come in handy. “Your _premise_ sucks festering goat gonads!” Entirely acceptable, pefectly civil. Oh, yeah, I can get some mileage outa that. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/58 "2003-02-08T20:49:50Z")
> [@](#): > > luci said American citizens would be deported, the article he cited did not. No. The article said that the government wanted more freedom to deport people and it wanted greater power to deprive persons of citizenship. If the government declares Jose Padilla a non-citizen and then deports him, they will have deported an American citizen. They may have made it a two-step process by inserting the deprivation of citizenship in the middle, but they will have taken a person raised as a citizen and deported him. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/59 "2003-02-08T20:52:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*So, is that like fainting with damn praise? > > Gotta remember that “premise” dodge, that’ll come in handy. > > “Your _premise_ sucks festering goat gonads!” Entirely acceptable, pefectly civil. Oh, yeah, I can get some mileage outa that. \*\* Um yeah, that’s rather the rule around here. Attack the post, not the poster. Where have you been? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605/60 "2003-02-08T21:04:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*No. The article said that the government wanted more freedom to deport people and it wanted greater power to deprive persons of citizenship. If the government declares Jose Padilla a non-citizen and then deports him, they will have deported an American citizen. They may have made it a two-step process by inserting the deprivation of citizenship in the middle, but they will have taken a person raised as a citizen and deported him. \*\* No. Two-step process or not, if they declare someone a non-citizen, and then deport him, a citizen has not been deported. Besides, no one is planning to declare Sr. Padilla a non-citizen. Any enemy combatant, sure. So there he is, cooling his heels in the brig. Cry me a river. Unless, of course, you have evidence that Padilla is going to be deported, or will it be the same non-evidence of plans to deport citizens that elucidator claimed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extend-patriot-act-moyers-has-scoop/153605.md?page=4)