# Extending the idea of Guns, germs and steel. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extending-the-idea-of-guns-germs-and-steel/330925 "2005-11-14T02:33:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extending-the-idea-of-guns-germs-and-steel/330925/21 "2005-11-16T18:48:33Z")
I think it’s a good point that Europe is divided enough for diversity but connected enough for unity. The Romans did conquer all of Europe at one point, and other countries have conquered nearly all of Europe for a few years, Napoleonic France and Nazi Germany. It wouldn’t have been inconcievable for some other power to reunify Europe at some point between Napoleon and Julius Caesar. And note that China and India and the Middle East haven’t always been unified themselves. And the famous Zheng Ho voyages show that China had the technology to do what Europeans did, they just lacked the political and economic desire. In the 1500s Europe was poorer than the Ottoman Empire, India or China, most of the gold and silver looted from the Americas ended up traded for eastern goods. If the European age of exploration had been set back then some other Eurasian region could have discovered the Americas. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extending-the-idea-of-guns-germs-and-steel/330925/22 "2005-11-17T01:11:51Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Can you provide the page number where he asserted that? > > I recall that he noted Europe’s geography allowed many more small states to arise in competition, with a number of small regions set off by seas or mountains that provided some natural defense for rebellious groups breeaking from larger groups. I do not recall any claim that the _people_ were more competitive, and, as my very short list above should demonstrate, people have been competitive and aggressive across the breadth of the world. What I said in relation to Diamond’s work was that, “the competition factor was pretty crucial in Europe’s eventual domination of other areas.” I then went on to state **my** idea as _separate_ but _related to_ Diamond’s, starting by saying, “My idea is. . .” I was not quoting him nor putting ideas there that he did not state. Also, I kind of doubt I would be able to find a specific citation for such a general idea. I know that he talks about cultural differences in a few places but I did not cite him as saying that any particular culture had an edge in competition. That was my idea. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extending-the-idea-of-guns-germs-and-steel/330925/23 "2005-11-17T01:42:07Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I think it’s a good point that Europe is divided enough for diversity but connected enough for unity. Just as important, the individual cultures in Europe are large enough to possess large amounts of resources, as opposed to, say, New Guinea where they tend to amount to a few villages. Diamond considers that an important point. > [@Lemur866](#): > > And the famous Zheng Ho voyages show that China had the technology to do what Europeans did, they just lacked the political and economic desire. Not exactly, and this is something Diamond uses to point out the weakness of China’s usual unity. IIRC from the book, there was a fight in the Imperial Court between two factions, one of which built and owned the ships. When they lost, the winners had them and the shipmaking facilities destroyed because they belonged to the losers, and the knowledge and skills were lost. In China, this ended the affair, but if that happened in a European country, the slack would have been taken up by another country, If Spain burned it’s shipyards, England wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extending-the-idea-of-guns-germs-and-steel/330925/24 "2005-11-17T03:44:43Z")
> [@archmichael](#): > > When I read GG&S, it was very familiar to me. I took me a while to figure out that it was from the computer game Civilization. Starting position played a huge role in how easy your game was going to be. > > If your settler starts off on a small island, you’re fucked. By the time you research ocean going vessels, you find all the continents have been colonized by stronger civs. > > If you ended up alone on a small continent, you were safe from aggressive neighbors, but the isolation usually means you technological advances are slower than the other civs that are trading technologies. > > Ideally you want to be on a big continent, so that the most resources will show up somewhere. Fertile, temperate land. Lots of rivers. Access to the ocean. And you want to be exposed to other civs. Oddly enough, some people at [www.apolyton.net](http://www.apolyton.net) (a civilization site) started developing a game based upon the GGS concept. It didn’t go anywhere, possibly because the underlying game element theme to GGS is, as you noticed, starting position is everything. Imagine how a MP game would go: “We all set?” “Yup” “Sure” “Go ahead” “Wah?” “All right, I’m about to start the game.” … “Done! Now for the map reveal!” “Dammit, I’m on an island - I lose.” “I’m stuck on some damn peninsula, 10 spaces away from the main continent. I lose.” “Huh? Surrounded by mountains? This game sux!” “Whoo-hoo! I’m in the middle of the biggest continent! I win!..” “… who wants to play again?” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extending-the-idea-of-guns-germs-and-steel/330925/25 "2005-11-17T04:11:40Z")
> [@Sleel](#): > > I did not cite him as saying that any particular culture had an edge in competition. That was my idea. Sheesh. OK. Sorry for the confusion. Of course, in conjunction with my earlier survey of aggression and acquisitiveness, I will note that I cannot think of any cultures (above the organizational level of hunter/gatherer) that were not pretty competitive when given the opportunity. I doubt that anyone could make a good case that Europeans are more competetive than any other group. ---
**Author:** ![archmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@archmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/archmichael)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extending-the-idea-of-guns-germs-and-steel/330925/26 "2005-11-17T13:16:19Z")
**JohnT** My problem is that now I tend to see too much in terms of Civilization. Everytime they cut some cutting edge science funding, it feels like someone is changing the “Science Research” percentage to 40% while the other Civs like Japan & Korea seem to be locked in at 80-90%. And I wonder what will happen to this real world 100 ‘turns’ down the road, because in-game you would lose. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extending-the-idea-of-guns-germs-and-steel/330925/27 "2005-11-17T13:28:07Z")
> [@archmichael](#): > > **JohnT** > > My problem is that now I tend to see too much in terms of Civilization. > > Everytime they cut some cutting edge science funding, it feels like someone is changing the “Science Research” percentage to 40% while the other Civs like Japan & Korea seem to be locked in at 80-90%. And I wonder what will happen to this real world 100 ‘turns’ down the road, because in-game you would lose. If ever a Civ needed to build a Great Wonder, it’s North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![archmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@archmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/archmichael)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2005, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extending-the-idea-of-guns-germs-and-steel/330925/28 "2005-11-17T13:33:44Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > If ever a Civ needed to build a Great Wonder, it’s North Korea. True, but they would build the Colossus of Kim Il Sung that cost hundreds of shields, take 60 turns to build, and adds 0 to science, trade and happiness. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extending-the-idea-of-guns-germs-and-steel/330925/29 "2005-11-18T01:39:38Z")
> [@archmichael](#): > > True, but they would build the Colossus of Kim Il Sung that cost hundreds of shields, take 60 turns to build, and adds 0 to science, trade and happiness. You would first have to switch to Communism to build it, and spend 5 or 6 turns in anarchy with zero production and rioters running around wrecking shit. Then the corruption and waste under Communism means you lose 9/10 of the production shields anyway. You’ll never get it finished! Even if you do, the next time you try to switch back to Democracy, the first thing the rioters do under Anarchy is topple the Colossus of KIS. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extending-the-idea-of-guns-germs-and-steel/330925.md?page=1)