# Extortionist restaurants: "Tip or we won't deliver." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 25, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174 "2006-04-25T17:53:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/181 "2006-04-26T17:09:45Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > The restaurant is saying that they will not allow me to purchase delivered food for the stated price of X. If I want it, I have to pay X plus some unstated mystery additional amount, subject entirely to the whim of the restaurant. I don’t think your second sentence can be true. “Mystery amount”? Can you truly not hazard a guess of what is expected? Growing up in the U.S. (an assumption on my part … please correct me if otherwise) should make the amount to tip more or less intuitive. If not, ask a few people. “Whim of the restaurant”? I highly doubt that. Is there evidence that they want more per delivery than what is customary? … The above concerns are why I asked you specifically what was happening – were the delivery folks getting _too low_ of tips too often, or _no_ tip too often? If I read the OP correctly … some of your office mates stiffed the delivery person for an incorrect order at some point – so there must be some disconnect between you all and the restaurant on how to handle wrong orders. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/182 "2006-04-26T17:09:53Z")
> [@Flyhalf](#): > > You are a complete jackass. Tipping is NOT mandAtory. And now I’m supposed to know what is and is not acceptable in every culture around the world? Jackass. I’d think that if you’re traveling to another country, one of the things you would research first is their tipping culture. It’s not as if most people travel to other countries that often; it’s not that hard to look up how much their waitresses or delivery people are paid. This is just another example of people lurving the free market until the free market makes a decision they don’t like. By not tipping you are screwing not only the driver but possibly even the restaurant owner. In PA if the employee doesn’t make at least minimum wage in wage + tips the employer has to pay the difference themselves. So that’s another really good reason for the employer to deny delivery to consistently bad tippers. Of course, I would like to do away with the tipping system completely. I wouldn’t mind paying more for my food without having to deliberate about how much I should tip and work out local customs. But this is the system we have, and it’s wrong to penalize workers just to “make a point.” > [@Miller](#): > > I don’t see what’s so complicated about tipping. Well, it can be. When I tip I like to tell them to keep the change so there’s no ambiguity on that point, but if my total does not come out to a good amount (say the final bill is $4.50, fifty cents is too little to me but $1.50 is too much) to pay with in paper money I’ll have to go through the hassle of getting change back. Not to mention that it looks cheap when you use change as a tip even if you tip a dollar or more in change (I left a gold dollar at a place last night and it looked chintzy to me even though it’s worth as much as a bill). And that’s not even counting the complex psychoanalysis one has to do to figure out if service was really bad enough to leave less, or good enough to leave more. It really can be a hassle. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/183 "2006-04-26T17:11:15Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > What’s so weird to me is how willing you are, **Otto** , to defend people who are stealing from the delivery people. Failing to tip is not stealing because _tips are not mandatory_. Failing to tip is not taking money out of the pocket of the driver because until the tipper gives it to him _it’s not his money_. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/184 "2006-04-26T17:11:31Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > You walk into a sit-down restaurant. You go to the maitre-d’ to be seated and she tells you that before she will seat you you will have to agree that you will tip your waiter 20%. What is your response to that? My response? “Are you kidding?” If they’re serious, then unless there’s a very good reason to do otherwise, I leave. And the world is right again. They didn’t extort from me, and I didn’t steal from them. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/185 "2006-04-26T17:11:55Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > It is part of the understanding that one expected is _as a reward for good service_. Am I _ever_, in your world view, allowed to withhold a tip? Or does the existence of a fucked up tax code obligate me regardless of the level of service? You are certainly allowed to leave a small tip, or no tip, for bad service. But you are not if the service is good or at least perfectly fine. What is the gap in understanding here? Being nice to your lover isn’t mandatory, either. Guess there’s no reason why you should do that either, eh? And if they get mad because you’re not being nice to them, why, they’re extorting you! > [@Otto](#): > > Since I always tip, your sense of my sense of entitlement is indicative of your complete lack of sense. Wow… what convuluted nonsense. You have been arguing, this entire thread, that the resteraunt that delivers does not have a right to refuse your company service due to not receiving tips. Whether or not you, personally, tip is irrelevant. You still smack of a sense of entitlement with your whines about “extortion” because the company doesn’t want to lose money. > [@Otto](#): > > If I haven’t made it clear previously, let me state explicitly that these places are perfectly within their rights to refuse to deliver food for any reason not specifically illegal. Then it aint extortion, is it? > [@Otto](#): > > I’m not saying they don’t have the right to demand tips for their drivers. I’m saying that doing so as a condition of service is shitty. Actually, you were saying it’s extortion. But beyond that little snafu in your gameplan, you’re back to your massive sense of entitlement. A business saying that it wants to make a profit or doesn’t want to deal with your order is ‘shitty’? What, the honor of serving you should be enough? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/186 "2006-04-26T17:14:36Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > But I’m not demanding the right to pay less than other customers, as long as those other customers are paying the price the restaurant asks for the food. If the stated price for having a given amount of food delivered to me is X, then I expect to be able to pay X for it, just like any other customer. Any other customer is paying the tip. You want not to have to pay the tip. They pay it. They are worth more to the restaurant. > [@](#): > > I’ve said at least three times that I would not object to it. You wouldn’t object to the restaurant instituting a $2/order service charge for delivering only to your location? We’ll call it the “bad tipper charge.” They say, “Oh, you’re at 123 Xyz Lane, which is a bad tipper address. We have to institute the ‘bad tipper charge’ of $2 per order.” You’re okay with that? If so, you don’t object to paying more for your food. If not, it isn’t that it’s a “mysterious” amount. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/187 "2006-04-26T17:16:05Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > You walk into a sit-down restaurant. You go to the maitre-d’ to be seated and she tells you that before she will seat you you will have to agree that you will tip your waiter 20%. What is your response to that? See … on this, we agree. Restaurants _should_ keep up the pretense that tips are voluntary for anything from slightly-below-average service and up. Service professionals should never be up-front and open about expecting tips. What would have been your response had the restaurant by your office just stopped delivering to your building, without explanation? _“Um … your building is outside of our new delivery area … gas prices, you know … yeah, that’s the ticket …”_ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/188 "2006-04-26T17:17:42Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Failing to tip is not stealing because _tips are not mandatory_. Failing to tip is not taking money out of the pocket of the driver because until the tipper gives it to him _it’s not his money_. What, you get to make up wacky definitions for crimes, but I don’t? How is that fair? Why are you kidnapping me like this? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/189 "2006-04-26T17:21:23Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > What, you get to make up wacky definitions for crimes, but I don’t? How is that fair? Why are you kidnapping me like this? Very well played. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/190 "2006-04-26T17:28:11Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Failing to tip is not stealing because _tips are not mandatory_. Here’s the thing, though – you’re outvoted by a large margin society. “Almost everyone accepting that something is mandatory” is the same as “something being mandatory”, for all intents and purposes. Things can be mandatory in other ways than by law. Arguing otherwise is purely academic, and cannot affect change in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/191 "2006-04-26T17:34:21Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > You walk into a sit-down restaurant. You go to the maitre-d’ to be seated and she tells you that before she will seat you you will have to agree that you will tip your waiter 20%. What is your response to that? I’d wonder how I got over to London. I walk into the restaurant expecting to tip 20%. If I can’t afford the tip, I can’t afford the bill. You can cross your arms, stamp your feet, and hold your breath all you want. In the US, tipping is the norm. You can attempt to affect social change - but if you do so by being a dick to the staff who expect and need the tips, expect to be called a dick. Personally, I won’t be helping your crusade, but should you succeed and cause prices to go up by 20%, then I’ll pay and stop tipping. I’m adaptable that way. ---
**Author:** ![Flyhalf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea5d25/32.png) [@Flyhalf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyhalf)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/192 "2006-04-26T17:41:22Z")
> [@davenportavenger](#): > > I’d think that if you’re traveling to another country, one of the things you would research first is their tipping culture. It’s not as if most people travel to other countries that often; it’s not that hard to look up how much their waitresses or delivery people are paid. As someone who has traveled internationally a fair amount and always does the research, I will concede this point. However, it’s the expectation that bothers me. To act as if one should get a tip no matter what is ridiculous. I believe that this whole situation falls under the definition of extortion (per [m-w.com](http://m-w.com), the ingenuity part?), but I also think that if you don’t like it, then don’t order from that establishment again. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/193 "2006-04-26T17:42:48Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > My response? “Are you kidding?” If they’re serious, then unless there’s a very good reason to do otherwise, I leave. So you object to the sit-down restaurant manager setting a policy of mandatory tipping for its underpaid staff but you don’t object to the delivery restaurant manager setting a policy of mandatory tipping for its underpaid delivery staff. Why do you hate sit-down staff so much? > [@jsgoddess](#): > > You wouldn’t object to the restaurant instituting a $2/order service charge for delivering only to your location? Sorry, I misunderstood your post. I thought you were talking about a charge for all customers. Yes, I would object to being singled out for a delivery charge in the manner you suggest. > [@bordelond](#): > > “Mystery amount”? Can you truly not hazard a guess of what is expected? Sure I can hazard a guess, but in this very thread there’s a discrepancy among posters as to what they tip. I round up to the dollar and add a dollar. Other people tip on percentages. Others tip a certain number of dollars based on price ranges. So what happens when the restaurant decides that I, who tips on average $1.50, isn’t tipping enough compared to the guy who’s tipping $2? Is their refusal to deliver then less reasonable? Why should I be put in the position of having to guess at what they consider an acceptable tip amount to begin with? > [@bordelond](#): > > “Whim of the restaurant”? I highly doubt that. Is there evidence that they want more per delivery than what is customary? What’s “customary”? My change plus dollar? Someone else’s $2? Yet someone else’s $3? What if my idea of “customary” differs from the restauranteur’s idea of customary? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > You are certainly allowed to leave a small tip, or no tip, for bad service. But you are not if the service is good or at least perfectly fine. So then your tax code argument is pretty much prueed bullshit. [quote=LHOD] What, you get to make up wacky definitions for crimes, but I don’t?] When exactly did I suggest that what the restaurant was doing constituted a criminal offense? You do understand that sometimes words that are names of crimes can also mean things that aren’t crimes, right? Or would you suggest that a baseball player complaining “we wuz robbed!” file a police report against the umpire? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/194 "2006-04-26T17:42:52Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > _tips are not mandatory_. sadly, neither is refraining from acting like a dick. However, happily we’re all allowed to point, laugh, insult and otherwise shun people who choose to act like dicks. see how nicely that all works out? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/195 "2006-04-26T17:45:51Z")
> [@Flyhalf](#): > > As someone who has traveled internationally a fair amount and always does the research, I will concede this point. However, it’s the expectation that bothers me. To act as if one should get a tip no matter what is ridiculous. > > I believe that this whole situation falls under the definition of extortion (per [m-w.com](http://m-w.com), the ingenuity part?), but I also think that if you don’t like it, then don’t order from that establishment again. I’m assuming you’re looking at the definition for “extort” at m-w: > [@](#): > > : to obtain from a person by force, intimidation, or undue or illegal power : WRING; also : to gain especially by ingenuity or compelling argument Applying that definition here makes a huge variety of situations extortion. For example: -“Check it out! I’ve developed great poker skills!” My ingenuity means that when I beat you at a game and gain your money, it’s extortion. -“Dude, you just ate at my restaurant. The price of that meal was $19.95. You knew that before you sat down. Pay up, or I’m calling the cops.” My compelling argument makes this extortion. Indeed, any situation in which someone makes the compelling argument that you’ll gain something good if you give them your money, you’ve been extorted. I don’t think you’re applying that definition reasonably. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/196 "2006-04-26T17:46:29Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > I’d wonder how I got over to London. Do restaurants in London explicitly refuse service to patrons who do not agree before being seated that they will tip 20%? > [@D\_Odds](#): > > I walk into the restaurant expecting to tip 20%. If I can’t afford the tip, I can’t afford the bill. I walk into a restaurant expecting to tip 20% as well. But I also expect that if the service is not deserving of a 20% tip that I will reduce the tip accordingly. What I do not expect is that before I am seated I will be required to agree to a 20% tip regardless of the quality of the service. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/197 "2006-04-26T17:49:39Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > So you object to the sit-down restaurant manager setting a policy of mandatory tipping for its underpaid staff but you don’t object to the delivery restaurant manager setting a policy of mandatory tipping for its underpaid delivery staff. Why do you hate sit-down staff so much? Wrong yet again; you’d do better to read folks’ words than to play pin-the-tail-on-the-argument. I wouldn’t order food from a place that demanded I tip, either: the rudeness would bug me. **That’s because I tip**. But my solution to the situation would be to stop frequenting their place of business, not to whine about extortion. > [@](#): > > You do understand that sometimes words that are names of crimes can also mean things that aren’t crimes, right? I do. I also understand that your use of extortion maps to no other definition of the word. I figured if you were going to make up crazy new definitions like a regular old cat burglar, I could do the same thing–after all, you’ve already proven a willingness to reduce the conversation to absurdity. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/198 "2006-04-26T17:55:03Z")
If they’re going to bitch about not getting enough tips I’d call their manager and ask straight up how much the mandatory tip had to be. “So, your not delivering to us because the tips aren’t big enough?” “Yep.” “Well, how much is big enough?” “Well, that’s up to the cust…” “No, cut out the bullshit. Give me a straight up percentage that will keep the food coming and the delivery guy from giving lip.” “Uh, 15%?” “Fine. Now, when I call and place my order, tack on that 15% and tell me what I owe. I don’t have time figure out 15% on 10 peoples different orders and collect a seperate pile of cash hoping it’s enough. Let’s just cut the crap and **you** tell **me** what your charging.” ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/199 "2006-04-26T17:55:34Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I’m assuming you’re looking at the definition for “extort” at m-w: > > > [@](#): > > > > : to obtain from a person by force, intimidation, or undue or illegal power :\*\* WRING\*\*; also : to gain especially by ingenuity or compelling argument > > Daniel :eek: :eek: :eek: (emphasis added) hey! I was **framed!** ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/200 "2006-04-26T17:56:03Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Sorry, I misunderstood your post. I thought you were talking about a charge for all customers. Yes, I would object to being singled out for a delivery charge in the manner you suggest. So, it’s not the “mysterious” nature of tipping that you’re objecting to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174.md?page=11)