# Extortionist restaurants: "Tip or we won't deliver." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 25, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174 "2006-04-25T17:53:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/281 "2006-04-27T18:41:44Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > It’s not arbitrary. We tip people who are doing jobs that- in earlier days- our servants would have done. So lets just reinforce the classist expression of superiority by slipping a shiny tuppence into the smock of my chambermaid as she smilingly fetches my soiled bedpan? Outside of the US, tipping is often viewed as an insult. While working as a grocery bagger once, after helping a quite wealthy person with their bags to their car, I was slipped a dollar. It only made me feel even more like a poor servant, not like I was getting my entitled reward for extra service. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/282 "2006-04-27T18:44:02Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Whatever you say, Finn. Keep on pretending. Hope you got that all out of your system. Pathologicaly unable to admit you’re wrong, eh? Or just still confused about what a collective noun is and digging yourself deeper rather than just saying “whoops”? But watching you is amusing, in its own way. Keep up the absurdity. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/283 "2006-04-27T19:04:52Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I don’t have a complete list, but a good guide to etiquette will have one for you. Professions in which tipping isn’t customary are paid through different channels. > > Daniel Actually, the government does have a complete list. (I got it while working as a waiter). I might even do some digging, but if I recall correctly it included jobs such as taxi drivers and barbers, because they’re expected to be tipped. As such, Unky Sam wants a piece of the action. And you have to prove that you didn’t get tips, if you’re tyring to avoid losing money out of your own pocket. Without careful kept records, this is often impossible, and like **Duffer** , you just have to bite the bullet. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/284 "2006-04-27T19:17:06Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Actually, the government does have a complete list. Interesting–I knew I’d seen such lists, but I didn’t know the government kept one. Good to know! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/285 "2006-04-27T19:29:23Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Interesting–I knew I’d seen such lists, but I didn’t know the government kept one. Good to know! > > Daniel Well, if we can’t fight each other we can at least fight ignorance 😉 I can’t seem to find the panphlet that I was given while working as a waiter, but [this](http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p552.pdf) is a good jumping off point, as is [this PDF.](http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1872.pdf) > [@](#): > > Other individuals that receive tip income include airport skycaps, bartenders, hair stylists, bellhops, casino workers, delivery service people, hotel housekeepers, manicurists, masseuses, parking attendants, railroad redcaps, and taxi drivers. And you can be darn sure that the IRS wants a cut of all the money they’re supposed to make. Heck, there are penalties for not recording your daily tips, in detail. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/286 "2006-04-27T19:52:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Pathologicaly unable to admit you’re wrong, eh? Ah yes, a variation on the old “denial” game. A sign of a problem is denial so denying you have a problem means you have the problem. This usually pops up in alcoholism threads as opposed to threads about tipping, but here it is. The alternative, of course, is that denying one is wrong means that one is in fact not wrong. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Or just still confused about what a collective noun is Nope, I know exactly what a collective noun is. I also know how corporate types write memos and I know when someone I’m arguing with has been making the same misinterpretation for the last several days and, rather than acknowledge that he might be even the slightest bit in error, starts railing about non-existent “intellectual dishonesty” and the like. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > But watching you is amusing, in its own way. Watching you has lost its charm. Buh bye. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/287 "2006-04-27T20:12:31Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Ah yes, a variation on the old “denial” game. A sign of a problem is denial so denying you have a problem means you have the problem. This usually pops up in alcoholism threads as opposed to threads about tipping, but here it is. The alternative, of course, is that denying one is wrong means that one is in fact not wrong. Hup hup hup! Off that cross! We need to save the wood until winter. The “denial game” here, is, simply, that you’ve being a 100% jerk and an intellectual coward and you still refuse to simply say “Oops, I was wrong.” Not because I say you’re wrong, but because you don’t (or you’re pretending you don’t because you’re too much of a pigheaded fool) understand what a collective noun is. Your position is so thoroughly bankrupt that you needed to create a spurious nitpick, post after post, instead of just admitting that the collective noun “the company” can and does refer to its individual employees. Pathetic. > [@Otto](#): > > Nope, I know exactly what a collective noun is. So you were pretending you didn’t… why? > [@Otto](#): > > I also know how corporate types write memos and I know when someone I’m arguing with has been making the same misinterpretation for the last several days and, rather than acknowledge that he might be even the slightest bit in error, starts railing about non-existent “intellectual dishonesty” and the like. And you’ve just contradicted yourself. If you really knew what a collective noun was, you’d know that there was no “misrepresantation”, that I was refering to the employees but using a collective noun all along. But you’re a pigheaded coward and a fool and you can’t bring yourself to say “oops, I was wrong.” You, dear fool, are the one who’s been making the same misrepresenation of my posts for days now. Even though I routinely parse it down smaller and smaller, you still pretend that you’re ignorant just so you don’t have to say “oops, I was wrong.” Instead of simply admitting a minor mistake, you feel the need to pretend that I used a collective noun to refer to the company brass ordering food for the company as a whole. But I’ve already pointed out that your blustering on this point is irrational and incoherent, as if the company brass was paying for it, they never would’ve spoken to the employees about tipping. Like I said, zero intellectual honesty, and a pigheaded asshole jerk to boot. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/288 "2006-04-27T20:14:00Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > From a logical, uber-nerd, Mr. Spock perspective, I still think it’s unnecessary. thanks/welcome ends the conversation on a perfectly good note, my having expressed gratitude. > > But you know what? I’m not a one-man crusader for Vulcan Etiquette. ONce I realized what was expected, I started trying to remember to say “goodbye” to people before they’d get annoyed at me for what they perceived as walking out on them rudely.Daniel Cute story, but “goodbye”'s are cheap. For relevance’s sake, your next analogy’d better involve money. > [@](#): > > Who would object to a system where prices start off 15-20% lower, and you get to choose the final price? People who value the comfort and simplicity of only being expected to pay an explicitly stated price. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/289 "2006-04-27T20:21:28Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > Cute story, but “goodbye”'s are cheap. For relevance’s sake, your next analogy’d better involve money. Okay. I was carrying kroner in my pocket. The money is not the important part of the story, since in the end, you’re going to end up paying the same whether you pay the servers directly (through tips) or indirectly (through the cost of food, which the manager then passes along to the servers). The main difference between the story is that, were the analogy perfect, I would have been neglecting to pay part of the expected cost of goods at the stores, instead of simply neglecting to complete a social ritual > [@](#): > > People who value the comfort and simplicity of only being expected to pay an explicitly stated price. And they’re welcome to live in a country where they get that simplicity. The United States isn’t such a country: here, the tipping system is set up to allow folks to remunerate service directly instead of indirectly. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/290 "2006-04-27T20:31:00Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > People who value the comfort and simplicity of only being expected to pay an explicitly stated price. At the risk of being insulting … I’ll be blunt: Tipping is easy for me – why isn’t it for you? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/291 "2006-04-27T20:49:06Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > People who value the comfort and simplicity of only being expected to pay an explicitly stated price. how’ya do that whole sales tax thing, then? or delivery charges? ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/57b2e6/32.png) [@Quasimodal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodal)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/292 "2006-04-27T20:51:17Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > At the risk of being insulting … I’ll be blunt: > > Tipping is easy for me – why isn’t it for you? Hey it all adds up. Lets say you eat out once a week and tip at least 2$ each time. 52 weeks \* 2 = 104. 104 \* 20 years = 2080$ Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/293 "2006-04-27T20:53:26Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > The money is not the important part of the story, since in the end, you’re going to end up paying the same whether you pay the servers directly (through tips) or indirectly (through the cost of food, which the manager then passes along to the servers). The money part is everything. The controversy isn’t about the final cost, it’s about the ambiguity invovled. It’s alot easier for you to start saying “goodbye” than it is to hand over an extra 20% of the stated bill when the house as a rule never mentions this expectation. > [@](#): > > The main difference between the story is that, were the analogy perfect, I would have been neglecting to pay part of the expected cost of goods at the stores, instead of simply neglecting to complete a social ritual Right, and wouldn’t you find that an unfair expectation for one never stated by those expecting it? How would you feel if, after getting back to they U.S., the sidewalk you walked on every day to go to and from town was a toll sidewalk, and you were expected, without any enforcement or notification, to discreetly leave the equivelant of about $10 to $20, depending on how much you used the sidewalk, next to the curb every day, and that locals are frequently dismayed that tourists like you don’t pay your share up upkeep of the block? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/294 "2006-04-27T20:59:51Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > Right, and wouldn’t you find that an unfair expectation for one never stated by those expecting it? How would you feel if, after getting back to they U.S., the sidewalk you walked on every day to go to and from town was a toll sidewalk, and you were expected, without any enforcement or notification, to discreetly leave the equivelant of about $10 to $20, depending on how much you used the sidewalk, next to the curb every day, and that locals are frequently dismayed that tourists like you don’t pay your share up upkeep of the block? And you criticize **my** analogies? 1. We’re not talking about a tradition that’s suddenly implemented. We’re talking about a tradition that’s been in the US for decades (if not centuries). 2. We’re not talking about a tradition that’s a well-kept secret. We’re talking about a tradition that is widely known throughout the world. We’re talking about a tradition that, if a visitor to the US makes the slightest effort to learn local customs, the visitor will hear about. 3. We’re not talking about payment to use a necessary service like a sidewalk. We’re talking about a luxury service, easily avoided. 4. We’re not talking about $10 to $20, unless this is a fine-walking establishment. We’re talking about $1-$5. Your analogy is absurd. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/295 "2006-04-27T21:00:36Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > How would you feel if, after getting back to they U.S… That should read “How would you feel if **you found out that** , after getting back to the U.S…” ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/296 "2006-04-27T21:00:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yep. It’s called their paycheck. > > Y’all do understand that, if tipping were abolished, you wouldn’t actually be saving any money are restaurants, right? Prices on food and drinks would be increased across the board as the restaurant owners would be forced to make up for the income shortfall among their waitstaff. You might actually end up spending more, and receiving worse service for your trouble. So how come McDonald’s, with no tipping, is so cheap? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/297 "2006-04-27T21:02:16Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > And you criticize **my** analogies? > > 1. We’re not talking about a tradition that’s suddenly implemented. We’re talking about a tradition that’s been in the US for decades (if not centuries). Looks like I didn’t slip in my edit in time. Oh well… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/298 "2006-04-27T21:05:48Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > So how come McDonald’s, with no tipping, is so cheap? 1. The food’s crap. 2. The work is designed to be idiot-proof, so they can hire pretty much anyone to do it. 3. The work is designed with minimal training, so they can put up with the high turnover rates that come with low wages. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/299 "2006-04-27T21:06:45Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > So how come McDonald’s, with no tipping, is so cheap? Because it’s crap? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/300 "2006-04-27T21:12:16Z")
> [@Martini Enfield](#): > > … > I had the same problem with Sales Taxes the last time I was in Californa. Price tag said “$7.99”, but the actual price came to $8.54 because of State Sales Tax or some shit like that. > > Again, I know I’m coming from a different culture, but how can anyone, honestly, really, object to a system in which you simply pay the price printed on the menu/price tag/price list, and not a cent more? If the total cost is going to be $8.54, put “$8.54” on the price tag/menu. I don’t care what the State Tax is (as long as it’s shown on the receipt), but I expect the price on the tag/menu to match what gets rung up on the register, regardless of whether the difference is due to Taxes, Tips, Service Charges, or whatever. Could not agree more. I don’t care how much the store is going to give for State Tax, for electricity, rent, the cleaning lady, the chef, the manager, the hostess, the bus boy, the waiter, the accountant, etc. Just tell me how much is coming out of my pocket. You figure out how much of it is going to whom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174.md?page=16)