# Extortionist restaurants: "Tip or we won't deliver." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 25, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174 "2006-04-25T17:53:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/341 "2006-04-28T04:45:17Z")
> [@ethanwinfield](#): > > Could someone please explain this to me: > > In California, there is no “tip credit” against the minimum wage. That means that a server at Denny’s earns $6.75/hour whether she is tipped or not. Other states do allow the tip credit. In a different state, the Denny’s server may only earn $2.13/hour (from her employer) and at least $3.02/hour in tips. However, if she is earning less than $5.15/hour, it is up to the employer to compensate her at a rate equaling minimum wage. No cites (too lazy) but it’s because of CA state labor laws. It’s a major reason companies prefer to base themselves outside of CA. Nevada, NM and AZ (I think) are benefitting. As a cite? Our software had to be revamped to include CA labor laws. A company that is global had to add in special coding for people added to a databse that were employed in CA. The number of job title codes (and the special tax rules, labor laws) sent the total from 22 to 38. When we went online in the UK we increased by 7. California increased the code almost 50% more than an entire kingdom. Says a little in my world. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/342 "2006-04-28T04:50:33Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > I give a minimum of 10% even if the waiter spits in my food at my table. Me too. Only I make sure I go to the bathroom and wipe my ass with the money first. Fair is fair, maybe I had a bad day as well? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/343 "2006-04-28T05:11:49Z")
> [@ethanwinfield](#): > > Whereas tipping was once a thank you for great service, it has become more of an apology. “I’m sorry you had to put up with my shit; here’s a twenty. Let’s call it even.” “I’m sorry your boss doesn’t pay you enough; here’s a twenty so you can pay your rent.” “I’m sorry you had to spend the last hour treating my like I am better than you. Here’s a twenty so you won’t hate me for being better off than you.” There have been studies on this. According to [Michael Lynn](http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/00/8.17.00/Lynn-tipping.html), this more or less sums up Americans: > [@](#): > > Tipping is more prevalent in countries whose populations are achievement-oriented, status-seeking, extroverted, neurotic and tenderhearted. These findings suggest that tipping exists to serve several functions, i.e., to increase the social attention/esteem that servers give customers, to reduce consumers’ anxieties about being served by others and to allow consumers to financially help servers. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/344 "2006-04-28T05:20:40Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Me too. Only I make sure I go to the bathroom and wipe my ass with the money first. Fair is fair, maybe I had a bad day as well? Hey, I never said it was a one-way deal. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/345 "2006-04-28T05:24:15Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Me too. Only I make sure I go to the bathroom and wipe my ass with the money first. Fair is fair, maybe I had a bad day as well? Shit (heh) let’s keep in mind the tip given may have been gotten earlier in the day. And Lord only knows what _that_ tipper was in the mood to do! ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/346 "2006-04-28T08:27:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The result: dining in general becomes a less pleasant experience for the diner. Not to the point where the waiter is openly rude or contemptuous of the customer, but the transaction is likely to become much more businesslike and impersonal, because there’s no real incentive for the waiter to go that extra mile to make the customer happy. He just has to make the customer happy enough not to complain to the manager. It was mentioned that’s how service is in a European restaurant. In my actual experience, staff are very pleasant and friendly regardless of what tips go where. This is in a variety of different restaurants, from expensive to cheap. The extra incentive to be pleasant, it would seem, stems from manners for most people 😉 ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/347 "2006-04-28T08:46:38Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > 1. She made me box my own leftovers. Sorry…when I’m out to eat it’s often because I don’t want to perform kitchen duties. I know many places don’t offer this service anymore, but many still do and it’s a nice touch. It pisses me off and I will cut your tip if you don’t. In many cities, packing leftovers is considered a health violation (and a liability risk- they pack your tuna salad, you leave it in the car all day and get sick and try to pin the blame on them) and is illegal. Some restraurants will do it anyway but it’s at the risk of their health certification. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/348 "2006-04-28T10:55:35Z")
You can all pretend that Tips ensure “Great service”, but that takes us into the territory of “what is great service?”, which is really a subject for a different thread. Look, the reality is that the service in countries without tipping is NOT as appalling as you’re making out- and the example of docking a waitresses’ tip for not magically producing free bread just proves what a massive sense of entitlement some people have. It certainly seems to indicate some kind of Master/Servant relationship, which certainly doesn’t seem appropriate in a 21st century restaurant- as opposed to, say, a 19th Century Gentlemen’s Club. “Thank you, old crone. Here is a bag of monies… Which I’m not going to give you.”- _Edmund Blackadder_ The service at the Hard Rock Cafe in London (no tipping) was just as good as the service at the Hard Rock Cafe in Surfers Paradise (again, no tipping), which was exactly the same level of good as the service at the Hard Rock Cafes in both Hawaii and Hollwood (Tipping). Here’s the thing: In non-tipping places, if your service sucks, you complain to the manager and you’ll get some of your meal comped- or some vouchers, or a free dessert etc. And if this happens, the staff member will get their ass kicked. So why not just pay the staff properly in the first place, and be done with it? Bad Service can be it’s own drawcard, if you do it properly (From the Ed Wood school of Customer Service). There’s a Chinese Restaurant in London which is world famous for having surly, rude, arrogant waiters. I can’t remember the name, but I ate there the last time I was in the UK, and the food was amazing- and the service was as bad as everyone said, but it was so bad it was good. The appalling service was part of the experience, if you will. Of course, that’s not usually the As I’ve asked before, who decided 15-20% of the bill was a fair tip? Ultimately, carrying a few plates or pouring a few drinks isn’t that much work in and of itself, and I really can’t see how it’s worth more than a dollar or two at best, with perhaps a $5 tip for truly amazing, above and beyond service. I have to say that as much as I dislike the idea of tipping waitstaff, I find the idea of tipping barstaff absolutely abhorrent. Sorry guys, but it takes almost no effort at all to pour a shot of bourbon into a glass with some ice and some coca-cola in it. Sure, if you’re asking for some horrendously complicated, exotic cocktail with a small rainforest and a little umbrella on top of it, maybe kick the guy a buck or two. But for standard drinks or pouring glasses of beer? Anyone over 18 can do that, and I fail to see why it should warrant a tip of any kind. [An excellent article on tipping here, from the New Yorker](http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/050905ta_talk_surowiecki) ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/349 "2006-04-28T10:56:27Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Ah, so the restaurant used to offer free bread, and when she told you this was no longer the case you expected her to go ahead and give you something else for free? > > What should she have offered you at no cost? Which item did the owner not pay for to his distributor? > > So you deducted 25% of her tip because she didn’t take the initiative to steal from her boss? Just to offer a token of your awesomeness? > At least you have the high moral ground on this one. :rolleyes: Look, genius…I didn’t ask for anything for free. We wanted bread. She didn’t offer it – for free or at a cost. We wanted BREAD. Not _free_ bread. Just BREAD. She lost money because she was clueless to the needs of her customer. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/350 "2006-04-28T10:59:23Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Wow. > > When I ask for a doggie bag/box, I insist on boxing it myself. I want to decide what comes off my plate and into the box. Not someone in the kitchen. > > See how life kinda sucks for food servers? You deduct her pay for not boxing your food. I come and deduct her pay for boxing my food. > > She’s pretty much fucked, unless she learns to read minds. What’s this “the correct response should have been…” > > Who are you to decide? Take it up with the chef, or the owner. They’re the ones who decided “no bread with meal! No substitutions! No give free stuff to bitchy customer!” The correct exchange would be “Can I box that up for you?” and I would say, “Yes, thanks” or “No, just bring me the box, thanks…I can do that myself.” See how easy that would be? No mind reading…just an interest in making the experience pleasant for the customer. Everyone wins. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/351 "2006-04-28T11:13:13Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > I’m not sure either of these are fair. If the restaraunt changed the menu and decided bread was no longer part of the meal, it’s not really on the waitress to start randomly start offering up free stuff. She could get fired if her manager found out. > > Second - regarding boxing the leftovers - after way too many years of restaraunt experience, I actually prefer this. A plate of leftovers looks a lot like a plate of garbage and I would be lying if I said I’d never seen someone tip someone’s leftovers into the garbage, and then seen a frantic waitress try to fish it out. > > No, I’m not kidding. No, I never did this. Yes, it’s horrendous and gross but it still happens. Again…no one asked for free anything. The correct response would be, “no…I’m sorry, that’s no longer part of this dish (it wasn’t in a basket on the table…it was actually part of the dish).” Then she could tell us there’s a charge…or a substitute…or SOMETHING. It’s the fact that she didn’t offer an option at all. She knew we wanted it but didn’t offer anything or even explain that they don’t have any bread in the building. She made no effort to please us in any way. I expect to pay a 20% tip every time I dine out. Had she done so, it would have probably resulted in a 22% tip. I recognize service that goes beyond the call. As far as fishing food out of the garbage…that’s another issue altogether except for the fact that you take that chance anytime someone else prepares your food. They could have done that with any item that was uneaten off another patron’s plate…and you’d never know the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/352 "2006-04-28T11:45:03Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > In many cities, packing leftovers is considered a health violation (and a liability risk- they pack your tuna salad, you leave it in the car all day and get sick and try to pin the blame on them) and is illegal. Some restraurants will do it anyway but it’s at the risk of their health certification. I don’t see how the two relate. If I pack it and leave it in the car all day and get sick, I can still say it was because of their food. The only way they could avoid this is to refuse to let anyone take leftovers with them. ---
**Author:** ![marymargaret](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@marymargaret](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marymargaret)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/353 "2006-04-28T11:45:21Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Again…no one asked for free anything. The correct response would be, “no…I’m sorry, that’s no longer part of this dish (it wasn’t in a basket on the table…it was actually part of the dish).” Out of curiosity, what was the dish? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/354 "2006-04-28T12:06:38Z")
> [@marymargaret](#): > > Out of curiosity, what was the dish? Blackened chicken and pasta. It was my husband’s order…I’m not exactly sure what else was in it. Peppers ‘n’ stuff, I think. I believe the bread was a garlic bread triangles kind of thing. Not really sure, as I’ve never had it myself. Our meals together totaled $27.00. ---
**Author:** ![ethanwinfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/96bed5/32.png) [@ethanwinfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ethanwinfield)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/355 "2006-04-28T12:32:05Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > No cites (too lazy) but it’s because of CA state labor laws. It’s a major reason companies prefer to base themselves outside of CA. Nevada, NM and AZ (I think) are benefitting. > > As a cite? Our software had to be revamped to include CA labor laws. A company that is global had to add in special coding for people added to a databse that were employed in CA. The number of job title codes (and the special tax rules, labor laws) sent the total from 22 to 38. When we went online in the UK we increased by 7. > > California increased the code almost 50% more than an entire kingdom. Says a little in my world. I understand that. It’s these questions I’m having trouble with: So how come if I go to Denny’s in California and then go to a Denny’s in another state, the menu items are not significantly higher in California? Are the California Denny’s profit margins just that much lower? If tipping is to supplement a server’s income because an employer can pay $2.13/hour, does that mean we shouldn’t tip in states where there is no “tip credit” against minimum wage? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/356 "2006-04-28T13:34:03Z")
> [@ethanwinfield](#): > > So how come if I go to Denny’s in California and then go to a Denny’s in another state, the menu items are not significantly higher in California? Are the California Denny’s profit margins just that much lower? Assuming Denny’s always starts servers at the minimum wage per state law, then every other state ends up subsidizing California. When it comes to enforcing one’s will on another, CA:USA::USA:World. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/357 "2006-04-28T14:09:06Z")
> [@Martini Enfield](#): > > [An excellent article on tipping here, from the New Yorker](http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/050905ta_talk_surowiecki) Thank you Martini Enfield. This article seems to point the way to finding something better on the tipping issue than the guesses people come up with to justify it (or denounce the custom.) I will have to look for this study by Michael Lynn: > [@](#): > > In an extensive survey of tipping studies, Michael Lynn, a professor at Cornell, found only a weak correlation between the quality of service that people report receiving and the tips they give. On average, exceptional service raised tips by about 1.5 per cent, which, Lynn argues, is too small for waiters to notice. And countries where there’s no tipping—like Australia and Japan—don’t have worse service than the United States. ---
**Author:** ![marymargaret](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@marymargaret](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marymargaret)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/358 "2006-04-28T18:23:28Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Blackened chicken and pasta. It was my husband’s order…I’m not exactly sure what else was in it. That is strange that they didn’t serve bread with pasta. (Of course, I am Queen of Carbs and have the ass to prove it!) ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/359 "2006-04-28T18:56:55Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > So you deducted 25% of her tip because she didn’t take the initiative to steal from her boss? Just to offer a token of your awesomeness? The baffling part is that she deducted down to a final tip of 15%, which is a pretty damn good tip anyway. There has been a thread in the past about the recent “tip creep” in expected percentage. There is one restaurant where we are repeat customers, get incredible service, and adore the owners and staff, and we’ll tip 20%. Superior service anywhere else we will go as high as 15%. We use 10% as our average. Note, I completely realize that this is not the unwritten wink-nudge tipping rate of 2006. In the 1980’s, we would be considered very good tippers, however I refuse to participate in the tip-flation of recent years. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/360 "2006-04-28T19:26:12Z")
I used to feel the same way. When I started serving twenty years ago, 15% was fine for me. Now it’s 20%? What a minute here. If the prices of everything have gone up, then 15% should be more now than it was twenty years ago, right? So it all works out. Except I don’t think it works out that way. I don’t have cites to back it up. If someone could point me towards a site that has the figures I’m looking for, I’d be interested. But the way I see it is, twenty years ago an average plate cost say, $7.50. People don’t like the cost of eating out to go up very much. If the price in restaurants went up as much as lots of other things have, that same plate should cost $20. Instead though, restaurants do whatever they can to keep prices low. So now, twenty years later that $7.50 plate only costs $9.50. Yet the price of the server’s rent, utilities, car, insurance, school, books, clothes and modern life in general has gone up much faster than the average price of a plate. Twenty years ago when I wanted a big box of chow-mein, it probably cost about $4. It was good, cheap food. Now it’s maybe $5. Or maybe $6. But it definitely hasn’t kept up with the cost of living. So, 15% of a $10 meal isn’t keeping up with the cost of life. Which is why I think 20% is becoming the base tip amount. The cost of your meal hasn’t gone enough for 15% of its price to pay the rent. Another thing is, everything is so gosh-darned electronic these days. In the old days, it was easier for servers to under report their tip income a bit, and make a little tax-free cash. Now it’s much easier to tax a server on every single penny they make. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174.md?page=19)