# Extortionist restaurants: "Tip or we won't deliver." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 25, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174 "2006-04-25T17:53:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/141 "2006-04-26T05:44:32Z")
And that, to me, is the whole issue. Leave out all this booshwa about extortion or a living wage. The fact is, in this continent, it is courtesy to tip a delivery driver, a courtesy which it is (consequently) discourteous to deny without a good reason. And businesses may find it appropriate to refuse to do business with customers who are discourteous to their employees, for reasons that have been laid out. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/142 "2006-04-26T05:46:31Z")
> [@Arnold Winkelried](#): > > I have no idea what you’re talking about here. Well, the OP was talking about tipping delivery drivers, not tipping in general. It’s not my responsibility to keep you on track. And your posts to this thread have long ago proven you have no idea what anyone here is talking about. Hijack away. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/143 "2006-04-26T05:56:55Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > The fact is, in this continent, it is courtesy to tip a delivery driver, a courtesy which it is (consequently) discourteous to deny without a good reason. Not just courtesy - necessary for them to make a decent salary. Which is why I tip people, even though I’m against the tipping system in general. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/144 "2006-04-26T07:28:32Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > Or we can simply acknowledge that the USA tipping social contract is emotional extortion by employers at the expense of the employees reliant upon tip income. OMG Emotional extortion! God forbid dear god in heaven you have to think for a moment about the poor slob shlepping your pizza! He may have a life and dreams and wants…and you shouldn’t have to have that big mean company make you consider them for a moment! To think you may look in to his eyes as you pay the bill…and see a human! Egads what is the world coming to! > [@](#): > > Why is the tax code my resposibility? Because we live in a human society and try to act like we care about each other and not like greedy second graders? Well, some of us do. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/145 "2006-04-26T11:39:41Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > No, a waitress constantly attends to my needs, keeps my glass filled, checks on the quality of the food, and in general improves the quality of my meal -and the tip reflects the degree to which she accomplishes this above the bare minimum of, say, merely bringing me my food and then vanishing. A delivery dude, on the other hand, does exactly one thing: brings me my food and then vanishes. If he accomplishes this, then I would\* give him exactly what he deserves for doing his basic job: nothing. He’s got a fricking employer to pay him for that. (If he _doesn’t_ manage to bring me my food, then me and the store need to have a little talk about the store not fulfulling its agreement.) Just wanted to point out that there’s a lot that goes into the task of delivery that’s not visible to the customer. A delivery person has to make sure he has the right order\* before he leaves the store, figure out the best route to your address, drive there as fast as reasonably possible, negotiate traffic, possibly deal with rain or snow, find a place to park, separate your order from other potential orders, wait around for someone to claim the order, and probably reconcile this with other deliveries on the same run. He doesn’t just teleport to your house or office building. So it’s not so much less work than what an in-store server does. \*I mean right as making sure the kitchen staff gave him the right order, correctly labeled. If the kitchen staff didn’t fill the order to specifications, that’s on them. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/146 "2006-04-26T12:20:41Z")
I really don’t see why the pizza or delivery place can’t just tack a delivery charge on top of the order and be done with it… “Bob’s Deli: All deliveries are subject to a 15% surcharge, minimum order $25” How hard is that? Any Pizza Delivery guy here asking for a Tip would likely be told: “You want a tip? Work hard, and be good to your Mother” as a response (from a very popular Pizza Hut ad a few years ago, no less!) Oh, and to the chap having trouble with tipping in NZ: You really don’t have to tip. I worked in Customer Service (including the food industry) while I was in High School in NZ, and what your friends said was right: The wages there were fine by NZ standards, and it was generally seen as either bribery or, at best, “Woohoo, Free Money!” to leave tips. Tipping had zero effect on the service, and I’ve never had any trouble with the service in Australia, NZ, or the UK (where you don’t tip). Service industry jobs are like any other job- fuck up (piss the customers off by providing shitty service) and you’ll get fired. Emotional blackmail to encourage tipping just discourages me from patronising those sorts of place- if they’re too stingy to pay their staff properly, then I’m not going to help them swell their coffers whilst shafting the employees. Tipping is generally regarded as Bad Form in NZ, which led to some cultural problems in the US, when waitstaff would get snarky because I hadn’t tipped them (or had only left a dollar or two). When I pointed out to them that an NZ Dollar was practically worthless compared to an American one, I earned about the same as them on an hourly basis, it wasn’t anything personal, and if they were in NZ I wouldn’t expect a tip either, most of them were fine with it. If the service was really good, I’d make a point of telling the manager, but my tipping was usually limited to simply rounding the bill up to the nearest whole number (ie, $18.73 would become $20). Yes, I know you’re all outraged at the Stingy Foreigner Who Doesn’t Tip, but I have to agree with Mr. Pink- it’s fucked up that the IRS taxes their tips and they get paid shit, but the Restaurant should just put the prices up and pay the staff a decent wage. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/147 "2006-04-26T12:21:40Z")
> [@Arnold Winkelried](#): > > I’m disagreeing with your argument that since the free market has determined that waiter tips make the restaurant workers work harder and benefit restaurant owners, then it’s obviously the best way for waiters to get paid. No you’re not, since you left out the part about how waiters seem to like it, too. > [@](#): > > Really? How much are they making? And do they declare all the amount they earn from tips to the I.R.S.? Folks I’ve talked to earn $15-$20/hour waiting tables. We don’t discuss taxes. > [@Otto](#): > > Lord knows I live to please Derrida. I seriously don’t understand how you can think that demanding something that’s supposed to be voluntary as a conditon of service is anything but extortionate. Given that you refused to provide a definition of extortion that applied, and i showed how none of the definitions in the dictionary applied, it’s easy for me to think this. Key is the fact that the service to be provided is completely voluntary, and that they could refuse you for far stupider reasons (your refusal to do a monkey dance, the palindromic nature of your name, etc) without causing you injury. > [@](#): > > Out of curiosity, what limit would you place on the seller here? What if everyone in the place were tipping 15% (which seems to be acceptable to those in the thread who favor tipping) and the seller announced that he would no longer accept delivery orders unless the buyer agreed up front to tip 20%? What about 40%? Why is the store owner even a party to any social contract between the food recipient and the delivery driver at all? Why would I place a limit on the seller? If they demand too much for the delivered food, then people will go elsewhere. There’s no problem here. If they were delivering water to a hurricane-ravaged area, we’d be in a different situation, and I’d be agreeing with you. But they’re not: they’re providing a convenience and a luxury, which you can easily do without. > [@](#): > > Why should I be able to buy food from a restaurant at the price the restaurant has set for it? Are you really asking me that? Are you drunk? My inebriation doesn’t enter into this. The restaurant is telling you that part of the price of future deliveries will be tipping, and you’re denying this. That’s the problem. > [@mattmcl](#): > > For the same reason we address medical doctors, but not doctors of philosophy, as “Doctor”: because rules of courtesy are not rational. Precisely. Appeals to tradition are perfectly acceptable in such matters, and businesses who require courtesy be paid to their employees are good businesses to work for. **Arnold** , the fact that your Swiss servers are happy with their system in no way invalidates the happiness of American servers with our system, and why would it? Again, I’m not the one trying to apply a one-size-fits-all model to everyone. > [@miller](#): > > And, just for the record, I want to point out that this may be the only thread in the history of the SDMB that will have you, me, Left Hand of Dorkness and Airman Doors all on the same side of the argument. Okay, that’s just _freaky_. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/148 "2006-04-26T13:02:57Z")
Am I the only one who thinks the attitude of the delivery people might have something to do with their tips, or lack thereof? Considering that at least some of them are ragging on the secretary or security folks because someone else didn’t tip them as they felt they deserved, there might be a bit of an attitude coming across to the customer one way or another as well. Stiffing the delivery guy because you are a cheapskate is one thing. Stiffing the guy who communicates “I got it here - what more do you want? So it isn’t what you ordered - talk to someone who cares. No, I can’t break a twenty.” is something else. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/149 "2006-04-26T13:06:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Stiffing the delivery guy because you are a cheapskate is one thing. Stiffing the guy who communicates “I got it here - what more do you want? So it isn’t what you ordered - talk to someone who cares. No, I can’t break a twenty.” is something else. Which, again, is fine, and your choice to make. And it’s the restaurant’s choice not to serve your business any longer. Personally, I wouldn’t want to keep ordering from a place with such awful delivery people: their ood might be ambrosia, but I’ll go pick it up instead. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/150 "2006-04-26T13:10:47Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > their ood might be ambrosia, but I’ll go pick it up instead. Maybe that’s the problem. They’re the only restaurant selling ood in the area. Mmm. Ood. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/151 "2006-04-26T13:15:23Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Maybe that’s the problem. They’re the only restaurant selling ood in the area. Mmm. Ood. 😃 Sorry, local acronym for Orzo On Drugs. Good stuff! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/152 "2006-04-26T13:53:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Why should someone deliver to you if you’re forcing them to lose money out of their own pocket? But I’m not forcing them to lose money out of their own pocket, because they aren’t entitled to a tip. They took the delivery job knowing it paid a certain hourly wage and that there was a possibility of money over and above that through tips. Tips aren’t guaranteed (or at least they aren’t supposed to be). As for why they should deliver to me or anyone else knowing that they might not get tipped, how about because it’s their job? > [@Martini Enfield](#): > > Tipping is generally regarded as Bad Form in NZ, which led to some cultural problems in the US, when waitstaff would get snarky because I hadn’t tipped them (or had only left a dollar or two). > When I pointed out to them that an NZ Dollar was practically worthless compared to an American one, I earned about the same as them on an hourly basis, it wasn’t anything personal, and if they were in NZ I wouldn’t expect a tip either, most of them were fine with it. I’ve never had a service person get nasty with me over the amount that I’ve tipped, but if one did my response would not be a measured discussion with them over exchange rates or my salary as compared to theirs. It would be to take the tip back, possibly with a comment to the effect of if they’re not satisfied with the amount I offered they might be happier with nothing. Because, again, tipping is _optional_. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/153 "2006-04-26T14:06:30Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > As for why they should deliver to me or anyone else knowing that they might not get tipped, how about because it’s their job? How about it’s not their job if the restaurant they work for says it’s not? > [@](#): > > Because, again, tipping is _optional_. As is continuing to do business with you. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/154 "2006-04-26T14:18:25Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > I’ve never had a service person get nasty with me over the amount that I’ve tipped, but if one did my response would not be a measured discussion with them over exchange rates or my salary as compared to theirs. It would be to take the tip back, possibly with a comment to the effect of if they’re not satisfied with the amount I offered they might be happier with nothing. Because, again, tipping is _optional_. I had one barmaid chase me out into the mall wanting to know why I gave her a 37-cent tip. It should have been closer to $20, had she not been so awful. I told her it was because she was rude, her friends in the corner with her were rude, she was a slacker, and…rude. I tip based on the quality of service. If I don’t have enough money to give an appropriate tip based on good-to-excellent service, I don’t go out to eat. How they handle _their_ end of the transaction determines what kind of tip they’ll get. And I immediately cut the tip in half if the waitperson asks if she should bring my change back. I know it’s customary for me to tip; it ain’t customary for the waitperson to ask for one. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/155 "2006-04-26T14:49:55Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > And I immediately cut the tip in half if the waitperson asks if she should bring my change back. I know it’s customary for me to tip; it ain’t customary for the waitperson to ask for one. When I pay cash, I always include the tip in the folder, to the exact dollar if I have it. I don’t want change back - my transaction is done. How is the server supposed to know if they are dealing with you or me? Different people approach the same transaction differently - I wouldn’t fault the staff for trying to figure out if they are dealing with a D\_Odds or a **Kalhoun**. Just my two cents. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/156 "2006-04-26T15:12:30Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Wait, so if you do indeed tip, then what’s the problem? Not to put words in **Otto’s** mouth, as I’m speaking for other people, but: Many, many people consider it unbelieveably rude and nervy for someone in the service industry to ever let on to a customer that they consider a tip _de facto_ mandatory. It’s of the utmost importance that the “voluntary” (wink, wink) nature of a tip be upheld, lest a tip is much , much less deserved. It reads to me like **Otto** is not bothered by tipping … he’s bothered by the restaurant openly regarding a tip as mandatory and expressing this to a customer. I agree with him, actually – I think there is considerable value in maintaining the “it’s a voluntary reward for good service” charade, as it actually does motivate a lot of servers to perform at their best. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/157 "2006-04-26T15:16:02Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > How about it’s not their job if the restaurant they work for says it’s not? And we come back to “extortion.” Sell me the food for the price on the menu or don’t. Don’t try to sell me the food for the menu price plus some undefined extra. If your drivers aren’t making enough money because you don’t pay them enough, start paying them more. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/158 "2006-04-26T15:16:37Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > Well, I, for one, don’t think the restaurants were being deceptive, but I’ll stand by the poor marketing critique. “You must tip” may strike most high-minded folks as stating the obvious, but to others, it’s demanding charity, which is offensive. Exactly – more succinctly worded. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/159 "2006-04-26T15:22:00Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Sell me the food for the price on the menu or don’t. Don’t try to sell me the food for the menu price plus some undefined extra. :shrug: It’s defined by custom. Why must everything be defined and spelled out to the letter? I agree with you that the restaurants shouldn’t have brazenly _demanded_ tips … but I don’t agree with you on the nature of tipping in general. What the restaurants should have done was to stop delivering to your office without warning … and just make up some BS excuse: “I’m sorry, our delivery person is no longer with us, so we discontinued delivery.” Hopefully, the loss of your office’s business wouldn’t be a severe detriment, or else they’d have to go another way. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/160 "2006-04-26T15:26:18Z")
> [@Martini Enfield](#): > > Tipping is generally regarded as Bad Form in NZ, which led to some cultural problems in the US, when waitstaff would get snarky because I hadn’t tipped them (or had only left a dollar or two). > > When I pointed out to them that an NZ Dollar was practically worthless compared to an American one, I earned about the same as them on an hourly basis, it wasn’t anything personal, and if they were in NZ I wouldn’t expect a tip either, most of them were fine with it. For future reference, tipping is considered manditory and to write it off as a “cultural difference” doesn’t excuse you. They were getting snarky because you hadn’t paid them for the services they rendered. If you don’t have money to tip, you don’t have money to go out to eat. There are plenty of counter-service restaurants that would be glad to serve you without a tip. How much money you make has nothing to do with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174.md?page=9)