# Extortionist restaurants: "Tip or we won't deliver." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 25, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174 "2006-04-25T17:53:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/161 "2006-04-26T15:27:35Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > And we come back to “extortion.” Gah! I’m not Derrida, so no we don’t! No definition of extortion has anything to do with this situation! > [@](#): > > Sell me the food for the price on the menu or don’t. Don’t try to sell me the food for the menu price plus some undefined extra. If your drivers aren’t making enough money because you don’t pay them enough, start paying them more. They HAVE defined the price for you: they’ve told you in advance what they need you to do. You’re just in denial about this. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/162 "2006-04-26T15:44:34Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > For future reference, tipping is considered manditory and to write it off as a “cultural difference” doesn’t excuse you. They were getting snarky because you hadn’t paid them for the services they rendered. If you don’t have money to tip, you don’t have money to go out to eat. Wow, do you bother to even try to understand what you’re reading and responding to any more? > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > No definition of extortion has anything to do with this situation! “Give me more than what this costs or you can’t have it” is extortion. > [@LHOD](#): > > They HAVE defined the price for you: they’ve told you in advance what they need you to do. No, they haven’t defined the price for me. They’ve told me I have to “tip.” So if I tip a penny, does that satisfy the requirement? If not, why not? It’s a tip, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/163 "2006-04-26T15:54:19Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > “Give me more than what this costs or you can’t have it” is extortion. But you can have it. Get it yourself. It’s all yours. > [@](#): > > No, they haven’t defined the price for me. They’ve told me I have to “tip.” So if I tip a penny, does that satisfy the requirement? If not, why not? It’s a tip, isn’t it? Now you’re just being intentionally obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/164 "2006-04-26T15:56:29Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > No, they haven’t defined the price for me. They’ve told me I have to “tip.” So if I tip a penny, does that satisfy the requirement? If not, why not? It’s a tip, isn’t it? Come now. You know better than this. What is this coming down to, anyway? What precisely is the restaurant’s beef? Were the delivery guys going to your building getting _too small_ of tips or _no_ tips? Are you fretting over not knowing for sure where “the line” is? Are you in doubt about your usual buck-plus-change … and since you can’t get an exact answer for just what amount you should be tipping, you’ve gotten frustrated? (A buck-plus is fine by me for a $10 order, by the way. Others will say “$2 for sure”, but I think $1.00-$1.75 or so will not anger anyone. Bets are off if you’re i an expensive market like NYC or San Francisco – ask around to better tune your tipping awareness.) Also: as others have pointed out, a delivery charge will not absolve you from a tip. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/165 "2006-04-26T15:56:52Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > But you can have it. Get it yourself. It’s all yours. I can’t have it delivered while other people can. And the reason I can’t have it delivered is because they’re asking me to pay more than the asking price. Extortion. > [@Airman](#): > > Now you’re just being intentionally obtuse. Translates to “I can’t answer the question.” ---
**Author:** ![Flyhalf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea5d25/32.png) [@Flyhalf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyhalf)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/166 "2006-04-26T15:59:42Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > For future reference, tipping is considered manditory and to write it off as a “cultural difference” doesn’t excuse you. You are a complete jackass. Tipping is NOT mandAtory. And now I’m supposed to know what is and is not acceptable in every culture around the world? Jackass. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/167 "2006-04-26T16:02:04Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > No, they haven’t defined the price for me. They’ve told me I have to “tip.” So if I tip a penny, does that satisfy the requirement? If not, why not? It’s a tip, isn’t it? Come now. You know better than this. What is this coming down to, anyway? What precisely is the restaurant’s beef? Were the delivery guys going to your building getting _too small_ of tips or _no_ tips? Are you fretting over not knowing for sure where “the line” is? Are you in doubt about your usual buck-plus-change … and since you can’t get an exact answer for just what amount you should be tipping, you’ve gotten frustrated? (A buck-plus is fine by me for a $10 order, by the way. Others will say “$2 for sure”, but I think $1.00-$1.75 or so will not anger anyone. Bets are off if you’re i an expensive market like NYC or San Francisco – ask around to better tune your tipping awareness.) Also: as others have pointed out, a delivery charge will not absolve you from a tip. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/168 "2006-04-26T16:04:49Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > I can’t have it delivered while other people can. And the reason I can’t have it delivered is because they’re asking me to pay more than the asking price. Extortion. No, extortion is you can’t have it. Period. That is not the case here. > [@](#): > > Translates to “I can’t answer the question.” I can answer the question. The fact that you asked such a stupid question means that you already know the answer. A penny? Give me a break. There was a scene in the movie \*_Trading Places_ where the Duke Brothers gave the employee at the club a fiver, and the guy reacted with “A whole five dollars! I may go the movies… by myeslf”. The reason it was so funny is because of how damn cheap they were when they didn’t have to be. You are doing the same thing with your “Is a penny good enough” comment and you know it. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/169 "2006-04-26T16:06:27Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > I can’t have it delivered while other people can. And the reason I can’t have it delivered is because they’re asking me to pay more than the asking price. Extortion. OK … fine … extortion it is. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/170 "2006-04-26T16:20:04Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > OK … fine … extortion it is. So what? Um…extortion is bad? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/171 "2006-04-26T16:25:24Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Um…extortion is bad? Only when people think it’s bad :shrug: You’re outvoted by a huge margin by society at large. Right? Answer this: can you change the American tipping system singlehandedly? If not, you’re just beating your head against the wall by refusing to “play ball” … and that can’t feel good. Seriously – are the other lunchtime options so inferior that the loss of this place’s deliveries is a problem? After a while, “the principle of the thing” really shouldn’t matter, and there should be a time when pragmatism takes over. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/172 "2006-04-26T16:28:14Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > And the reason I can’t have it delivered is because they’re asking me to pay more than the asking price. Extortion. Not extortion. Market. Did you know that in some places, houses sell for well above their “asking prices”? If a house is on the market for $50,000 and you offer $50,000 but someone else offers $100,000, is it “extortion” for the seller to take the higher offer? If you call one of my employees vicious names and I stop selling to you because I refuse to allow people to be rude to my employees, is that extortion? The biggest question is this: You are complaining that you can’t do business with people you are also claiming indulge in unethical practices. They’re terrible, horrible people, and you want to give them money. Isn’t that a bit weird? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/173 "2006-04-26T16:32:04Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The biggest question is this: You are complaining that you can’t do business with people you are also claiming indulge in unethical practices. They’re terrible, horrible people, and you want to give them money. Isn’t that a bit weird? This is what I was wondering. “Eat elsewhere” seems to be the easy answer. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/174 "2006-04-26T16:36:23Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Which, again, is fine, and your choice to make. And it’s the restaurant’s choice not to serve your business any longer. Personally, I wouldn’t want to keep ordering from a place with such awful delivery people: their ood might be ambrosia, but I’ll go pick it up instead. Well - it depends on what is being agreed to. AFAICT, the social contract is “good tips for good service, average tips for average service, no tips for bad service”. Thus the information that I noticed may show that this contract was being upheld, but the delivery folks didn’t like it. If the restaurant wants a contract where there is an extra payment for delivery, then they charge a delivery fee up front. If the delivery people want to collect a delivery “fee” no matter what their level of service, then they need to take that up with their employers, not the customers who are still operating under the “bad service == no tip”. Or possibly “customer == cheap bastard” - there is no way to tell. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/175 "2006-04-26T16:38:08Z")
I meant to expand on the “market” thing. The reason they can demand more than the “asking price” is that people will pay it. There are other places to deliver to where the people pay tips, therefore the restaurant willingly delivers there. If no place paid tips, the restaurant would have to pay more to their drivers, which means their stated prices would have to go up or they would stop delivering at all. You claim that they are demanding you pay more that the asking price. I claim you are demanding the right to pay less than their other customers. Why would they want to do you such a favor? How about if the restaurant instituted a fee, say a $2/order fee for delivering to your location. Stated it right up front. Would you object to that? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/176 "2006-04-26T16:43:51Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > But I’m not forcing them to lose money out of their own pocket, because they aren’t entitled to a tip. What tortured anti-logic is this? Yes, you are forcing them to lose money out of their pocket, because they get taxed based on projected tips. If they make under that, they still get taxed for that. Thus, if you tip under that, you are forcing them to lose money from their own pocket. Under those circumstances, it’s not surprising that they don’t want to lose money by delivering you food. This is not rocket science. You can stand on ceremony all you want, but at the end of the day (and the beginning too), in America one is expected to tip, it’s part of the understanding you enter into once you go to a resteraunt or order delivery. You can argue about how it’s not required all you like, but to the delivery driver, his income depends on it.\* And if you won’t pay him, don’t expect him to give you service. Because you’re not a charity case. \* > [@Otto](#): > > They took the delivery job knowing it paid a certain hourly wage and that there was a possibility of money over and above that through tips. Tips aren’t guaranteed (or at least they aren’t supposed to be). Yes, and if a jerk customer won’t tip, they don’t have to deliver to them. Your sense of entitlement is simply off the chart. > [@Otto](#): > > As for why they should deliver to me or anyone else knowing that they might not get tipped, how about because it’s their job? Nowhere in their job description does it say “Lose money from your own pocket delivering to someone who thinks that they’re entitled to make you lose money at your own job.” This is realy just bizarre. In a free market, they have a choice whether to sell to you or not. If they’re not making a profit on your order, they don’t have to sell to you. Why on earth do you think you have the right to get service if they’re losing money on your orders? Just because tipping isn’t the law? Does that really make sense to you? Tipping is optional. So is serving you. Who’d a thunk it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/177 "2006-04-26T16:48:26Z")
> [@Arnold Winkelried](#): > > So why do we tip waiters but not other people in the service industry? The cooks, the airline stewardesses, the salesman at the department store, the cashier at the supermarket, the bag boy at the supermarket, the customer service guy in the complaints department? etc. Because we don’t. Maybe we should, but that’s not how it works. How is this an argument against tipping waiters? > [@](#): > > I disagree again. The waiter’s job is to serve the food offered by the restaurant in a prompt, efficient, courteous manner. If that makes the customer happy, so much the better. A manager should be perfectly capable if the waiter is doing a good job. I was a waiter at one point in my life and I met some real pain-in-the-ass customers, who never would have been happy unless I ran out to the grocery store to fetch them something that wasn’t on the menu. If a manager can’t tell if a waiter is doing a good job, how do other managers in other branches of the service industry ever decide who is a good employee? The point isn’t that it’s impossible to know, the point is that tipping is a _superior way of making that determination._ The person who is in the most direct position to know how good a job the waiter is doing is the person being waited on, so having that person control the waiter’s renumeration for good service is going to give the most accurate, direct reinforcment for good service. > [@](#): > > And I don’t want to have to determine how a restaurant is run when I decide on my tip. I want paying the bill to be simple and uncomplicated. I don’t see what’s so complicated about tipping. > [@](#): > > How many meals he’s served, how many customer complaints he’s received, etc. Same with any other service employee. Most people aren’t going to complain unless the service is spectacularly bad. And most people aren’t going to go out of their way to tell the management about really great service no matter what. Tipping is, again, a far superior way to reward good service. > [@](#): > > I hear the arguments that > a) Underpaying and having the employee depend on charity makes people work harder > b) If we didn’t have this system, service in restaurants would go to hell in a hand-basket > c) It’s what the waiters want anyway > > My answers are > a) Maybe, but I think it’s unfair to the employees and a reprehensible method of compensating an employee > b) I know this is false, from seeing an example of a country where tipping is not expected or commonly done, if at all > c) I would want to see some unbiased survey to convince me of that. Surveying waiters in the USA right now would obviously be slanted towards people who choose to work in a job where tips are the norm. a) Why is it unfair? And reprehensible? That’s almost as ridiculous an act of hyperbole as **Otto** ’s continued abuse of the word “extortion.” Certainly, the waiters themselves in this country prefer our method. Which, while not necessarily proof that tipping is better, is pretty strong evidence that they don’t feel that they are being taken advantage of. And you say you want to see an unbiased survey before you accept “c,” well, I want to see one before I’ll accept you argument against “b.” It’s certainly been my experience that, while service in countries that don’t tip hasn’t been bad, I’ve never seen a waiter go to the lengths that an American waiter will to ensure good service. But, obviously, that’s hardly a scientific sampling. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/178 "2006-04-26T16:59:22Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > This is what I was wondering. “Eat elsewhere” seems to be the easy answer. I already said in the OP that I would not do business with them. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > You claim that they are demanding you pay more that the asking price. I claim you are demanding the right to pay less than their other customers. But I’m not demanding the right to pay less than other customers, as long as those other customers are paying the price the restaurant asks for the food. If the stated price for having a given amount of food delivered to me is X, then I expect to be able to pay X for it, just like any other customer. The restaurant is saying that they will not allow me to purchase delivered food for the stated price of X. If I want it, I have to pay X plus some unstated mystery additional amount, subject entirely to the whim of the restaurant. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > How about if the restaurant instituted a fee, say a $2/order fee for delivering to your location. Stated it right up front. Would you object to that? I’ve said at least three times that I would not object to it. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, you are forcing them to lose money out of their pocket, because they get taxed based on projected tips. I don’t set their tax rate and I don’t collect their tax. That the various taxing authorities have decided to fuck people in the service industry is not my responsibility. That restaurants have been given the option of shifting their obligation to compensate their employees fairly onto individual customers is not my responsibility. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > You can stand on ceremony all you want, but at the end of the day (and the beginning too), in America one is expected to tip, it’s part of the understanding you enter into once you go to a resteraunt or order delivery. It is part of the understanding that one expected is _as a reward for good service_. Am I _ever_, in your world view, allowed to withhold a tip? Or does the existence of a fucked up tax code obligate me regardless of the level of service? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Your sense of entitlement is simply off the chart. Since I always tip, your sense of my sense of entitlement is indicative of your complete lack of sense. If I haven’t made it clear previously, let me state explicitly that these places are perfectly within their rights to refuse to deliver food for any reason not specifically illegal. I’m not saying they don’t have the right to demand tips for their drivers. I’m saying that doing so as a condition of service is shitty. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/179 "2006-04-26T17:04:10Z")
What’s so weird to me is how willing you are, **Otto** , to defend people who are stealing from the delivery people. Why is theft okay, when extortion is not? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174/180 "2006-04-26T17:08:59Z")
Consider this scenario: You walk into a sit-down restaurant. You go to the maitre-d’ to be seated and she tells you that before she will seat you you will have to agree that you will tip your waiter 20%. What is your response to that? And yes, I know that restaurants typically add a gratuity for parties over six, and that is not under discussion here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extortionist-restaurants-tip-or-we-wont-deliver/354174.md?page=10)