# Extradite Gulen to Turkey? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2016, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434 "2016-08-11T12:21:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/21 "2016-08-11T20:22:28Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > 1. What are the particulars of an extradition agreement with Turkey, if indeed there is one? There is one and it’s been in force since 1 Jan 1981 according to the [US Embassy in Turkey.](http://turkey.usembassy.gov/treaty_websites.html) There’s a link to the full 44 page treaty in there. Some key bits: > [@](#): > > EXTRADITABLE OFFENSES > (1) Extraditable offenses, pursuant to the provisions of this Treaty, are: > (a) Offenses, regardless of whether listed in the Appendix to this Treaty or not, which are punishable under both the federal laws of the United States and the laws of Turkey by deprivation of liberty at least for a period exceeding one year or by a more severe penalty. > (b) Offenses listed in [\*5] the Appendix to this Treaty which are punishable under both the laws of the Requesting Party and the Requested Party for at least a period exceeding one year or by a more severe penalty. For purposes of extradition, it shall not matter whether the laws of the Contracting Parties place the offense within the same category of offenses or describe an offense by the same terminology. > (2) Extradition shall be granted in respect of an extraditable offense for the enforcement of a penalty or prison sentence, if the duration of the penalty or prison sentence still to be served amounts to at least six months. > (3) Subject to the conditions set out in paragraph (1), extradition shall also be granted: > (a) For attempts to commit, or participation as principal, accomplice or accessory in any extraditable offense; > (b) For the offense of association to commit a crime under the laws of Turkey and for conspiracy under the laws of the United States when the facts establish an offense under the laws of both Contracting Parties; > (c) For any extraditable offense when, only for the purpose of granting jurisdiction to the United States Government, transportation, transmission of persons or property, the [\*6] use of mails or other means of communication or use of other means of carrying out interstate or foreign commerce constitutes an element of the specific offense. > (4) When a request for extradition comprises several separate offenses and extradition has been granted for one of the extraditable offenses, it shall also be granted for other extraditable offenses which could not otherwise fulfill the requirements of paragraphs (1) and (2) above as related to the deprivation of liberty to be served or duration of the penalty to be enforced in the Requesting Party. > > ARTICLE 3 > CONDITIONS OF REFUSAL > (1) Extradition shall not be granted: > (a) If the offense for which extradition is requested is regarded by the Requested Party to be of a political character or an offense connected with such an offense; or if the Requested Party concludes that the request for extradition has, in fact, been made to prosecute or punish the person sought for an offense of a political character or on account of his political opinions. However, any offense committed or attempted against a Head of State or a Head of Government or against a member of their families shall not be deemed to be an offense of a political character. [\*7] > The provisions of this paragraph shall not affect any obligation of the Contracting Parties which has already been undertaken or may subsequently be undertaken by them under any multilateral international agreement. > (b) If the offense for which extradition is requested constitutes a purely military offense which is not an offense under ordinary criminal law; > (c) If the person whose surrender is sought has, under the laws of either the Requesting or the Requested Party, become immune by reason of lapse of time from prosecution or punishment for the offense for which extradition is requested; > (d) If the person whose surrender is sought has been tried and acquitted or punished with final and binding effect in the Requested Party for the offense for which extradition is requested; > (e) If the offense for which extradition is requested has, according to the laws of the Requested Party, been committed in its territory and has been or will be submitted to its appropriate judicial authorities for prosecution; or > (f) If the offense for which extradition is requested has been or is subject to amnesty or pardon by either of the Parties. > (2) Extradition may be refused in any of the following circumstances: [\*8] > (a) If the person whose surrender is sought is being prosecuted in the Requested Party for the same offense; > (b) If the Requested Party has decided either not to prosecute or to terminate prosecution for the same offense; or > (c) If the person whose surrender is sought has been tried and acquitted or punished in the territory of a third State for the same offense. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/22 "2016-08-11T20:56:11Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > “… a man whose only crime is vocal, peaceful opposition to an aspiring despot.” > > Do we know that to be the case? Apparently, he is under the scrutiny of law enforcement here in the U.S. for some sneaky business involving charter schools. Not to mention littering and creating a nuisance. 🙂 I think you need solid grounds for believing Gulen was involved in plotting/contributing to the Turkish coup attempt, before he gets sent back to certain lifelong imprisonment or execution, with a round of torture beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/23 "2016-08-11T22:03:58Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > “… a man whose only crime is vocal, peaceful opposition to an aspiring despot.” > > Do we know that to be the case? Apparently, he is under the scrutiny of law enforcement here in the U.S. for some sneaky business involving charter schools. Please show me. **Tripolar** , the nature of their government is for them to decide. It’s becoming a more deeply flawed democracy each passing day. Preserving whatever democratic system they have left is superior to supporting a massive purge of a different nature if the coup had succeeded. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/24 "2016-08-11T23:52:49Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Not to mention littering and creating a nuisance. 🙂 Send him off to the group W bench. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/25 "2016-08-12T00:06:16Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I think you need solid grounds for believing Gulen was involved in plotting/contributing to the Turkish coup attempt, before he gets sent back to certain lifelong imprisonment or execution, with a round of torture beforehand. No, that wouldn’t justify extradition. As I said earlier, political offences normally do not qualify for extradition, and that’s in the treaty quoted above. > [@](#): > > (1) **Extradition shall not be granted** : > > (a) If the offense for which extradition is requested is regarded by the Requested Party to be of a **political character or an offense connected with such an offense** ; or if the Requested Party concludes that the request for extradition has, in fact, been made\*\* to prosecute or punish the person sought for an offense of a political character or on account of his political opinions\*\*. However, any offense committed or attempted against a Head of State or a Head of Government or against a member of their families shall not be deemed to be an offense of a political character. [\*7] ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/26 "2016-08-12T00:07:43Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > **Tripolar** , the nature of their government is for them to decide. It’s becoming a more deeply flawed democracy each passing day. Preserving whatever democratic system they have left is superior to supporting a massive purge of a different nature if the coup had succeeded. It’s not that clear cut from what I understand about Turkey’s history. The military seems to have a greater function in their government than what we are used to. Some talking head compared a coup in Turkey to an impeachment here, but I am no expert on this, take that with a grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/27 "2016-08-12T03:11:16Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It’s not that clear cut from what I understand about Turkey’s history. The military seems to have a greater function in their government than what we are used to. Some talking head compared a coup in Turkey to an impeachment here, but I am no expert on this, take that with a grain of salt. The four coups in recent Turkish history were for a variety of reasons, with only one being a concern over Islamism in my interpretation (the Ottomans had problems with military coups from early after taking Istanbul onward). I view the military’s self-assigned role as defenders of Kemalism much as I view the theocracy in Iran determining who runs for office: It’s simply undemocratic and represses the will of the people. The problem with Turkey and Russia and Egypt and many countries in that part of the world is the authoritarianism. A coup of Erdogan’s government is just replacing one authoritarian group with another. It doesn’t matter who’s running the government because the group running it fills all the government positions with their guys and fires all the people that aren’t their guys. They repress whomever speaks out against them. They repress the freedom of their opponents and lavish gifts upon themselves. Coups won’t solve this. Only the Turkish people adopting a different attitude can solve the problem of corruption and this mentality where the winner takes absolutely everything. And Gulen? He’s no different than Erdogan. I don’t think he had anything to do with the coup, but when it was time to break the military’s back, Gulen was right there helping to make it happen. Just another authoritarian deciding what is best for Turks without using the governing mechanisms in place. And the USA? If we had backed the coup instead of the principles of respecting the results of democratic elections, then we would be just another authoritarian deciding what is best for Turks without using the governing mechanisms in place. The Middle East has seen enough of that. Let them make their own mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/28 "2016-08-12T03:14:35Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > I have seen no solid info about how he was allowed to live in the US. If anyone here has, please post links. Aha, finally [found one with some actual specifics:](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/hes-frail-77-and-lives-in-pennsylvania-turkey-says-hes-a-coup-mastermind/2016/08/03/6b1b2226-526f-11e6-bbf5-957ad17b4385_story.html) "For nearly a decade after he appeared here on a tourist visa, U.S. immigration officials sporadically tried to push him out… … he was granted an immigrant visa in 2001 as a “religious worker.” Eighteen months later, he applied for permanent residence… Before that application was adjudicated, the government revoked his “religious” visa for undisclosed reasons. Gulen successfully appealed that decision, even as he filed, in late 2006, a new permanent residence petition, this time as an “educator” under a special program for persons with “extraordinary ability.” In November 2007, that application was denied. Gulen appealed and was again denied, but he had already filed a federal civil suit charging he had been mistreated. For more than a year, the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania fought the case, arguing that Gulen, who had not attended high school or taught in a classroom, was neither an educator nor extraordinary. His movement, the government said in court documents, was “primarily religious and political, not educational.” Evidence presented of Gulen’s “extraordinary abilities,” it said, “has nothing whatever to do with education. Plaintiff has never performed scholarly research in the field of education. And [his] consulting on conferences about his own work is essentially continuing to promote himself and his movement by paying academics to write papers about him.” Gulen submitted letters of support from former Turkish and U.S. officials, along with boxes of documents and numerous books and testimonials that in some cases appear to contradict the organization’s later insistence that he has no direct involvement in its network of schools. In July 2008, Gulen won. Not only did he demonstrate his prominence and acclaim in the field of education, Judge Stewart Dalzell ruled, but his activities were “certainly a benefit to the United States in these times of tensions between adherents of different religions.” Dalzell ordered the government to issue him a green card and pay his legal expenses." So there are a few bits of inaccurate/imprecise legal language above, but it sounds like an [EB-1 extraordinary ability self-petition](https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-through-job/green-card-through-self-petition) for permanent residence after an R-1 religious worker visa? ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/29 "2016-08-12T15:49:47Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > So there are a few bits of inaccurate/imprecise legal language above, but it sounds like an [EB-1 extraordinary ability self-petition](https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-through-job/green-card-through-self-petition) for permanent residence after an R-1 religious worker visa? It kind of does sound like that justification. Thanks for the legwork. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/30 "2016-08-13T13:26:16Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > No, that wouldn’t justify extradition. As I said earlier, political offences normally do not qualify for extradition, and that’s in the treaty quoted above. But I’m not seeing how "any offense committed or attempted against a Head of State or a Head of Government or against a member of their families shall not be deemed to be an offense of a political character. [\*7] " means that Gulen would be exempt from extradition if he were involved in the coup attempt. More likely to me is the idea that he would not be extradited, even if the Turkish government could show substantial involvement in the coup attempt, because of the [Convention Against Torture,](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_against_Torture) to which the U.S. is signatory. Turkey doesn’t exactly have a perfect [human rights record.](https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/country-chapters/turkey) ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/31 "2016-08-16T14:10:00Z")
Is it possible to extradite Gulen regardless of the legal rules? I ask because I think the real question here is how much do we want to maintain our relationship with Turkey, such as it is. Whatever the reality of his involvement in the coup and whether the Turkish government can bring sufficient evidence are questions that aren’t going to matter when so much of Turkish society is convinced that FETO is real and has acted against the government. All the major parties except the HDP have made it clear they believe that Gulen managed the coup. It’s literally the equivalent of Afghanistan refusing to hand over bin Laden in 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/32 "2016-08-16T15:03:01Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Is it possible to extradite Gulen regardless of the legal rules? > > I ask because I think the real question here is how much do we want to maintain our relationship with Turkey, such as it is. Whatever the reality of his involvement in the coup and whether the Turkish government can bring sufficient evidence are questions that aren’t going to matter when so much of Turkish society is convinced that FETO is real and has acted against the government. All the major parties except the HDP have made it clear they believe that Gulen managed the coup. > > It’s literally the equivalent of Afghanistan refusing to hand over bin Laden in 2001. There’s the other side of the realpolitik coin. If we turn over Gulan, what happens the next time we want some political exile to oppose the government in his home country? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/33 "2016-08-16T15:30:40Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Is it possible to extradite Gulen regardless of the legal rules?.. Of course it’s _possible._ If we’re willing to disregard the law then we could drag him out on the White House lawn and put a bullet in his head too. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/34 "2016-08-16T16:50:21Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There’s the other side of the realpolitik coin. If we turn over Gulan, what happens the next time we want some political exile to oppose the government in his home country? I don’t understand. Was Gulen opposing Erdogan at our request? He was working well with Erdogan until apparently 2013 or so. > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Of course it’s _possible._ If we’re willing to disregard the law then we could drag him out on the White House lawn and put a bullet in his head too. Thank you for identifying where I’ve been imprecise in communicating my thoughts. I mean regardless of the extradition rules. In effect, can we just go ahead and send him back to Turkey? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/35 "2016-08-16T17:07:03Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I mean regardless of the extradition rules. In effect, can we just go ahead and send him back to Turkey? He may well be a U.S. citizen by now. It’s not so simple as just putting him on a plane. Politically I simply don’t think it’s going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/36 "2016-08-16T17:17:33Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I mean regardless of the extradition rules. In effect, can we just go ahead and send him back to Turkey? We give virtually everyone some form of due process, a chance to plead their case before a judge. He’d almost certainly be given an opportunity to contest his extradition, and if he can convince the judge that the US Government is disregarding the appropriate rules / laws / treaties, he’ll probably win and be allowed to stay. If the government were then to ignore the adverse judicial ruling, we’d be taking our own dangerous steps down the path to despotism. In short, no, I don’t think we can just go ahead and send him back to Turkey without regard to the rules and laws in place that govern the matter. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/37 "2016-08-16T17:18:57Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > It’s literally the equivalent of Afghanistan refusing to hand over bin Laden in 2001. We had compelling evidence that OBL had been directly involved in a very serious crime against the United States. Turkey does not seem to have this with regard to Gulen. That’s where I see the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/38 "2016-08-16T19:44:27Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > No, that wouldn’t justify extradition. As I said earlier, political offences normally do not qualify for extradition, and that’s in the treaty quoted above. However: > [@](#): > > (1) Extradition shall not be granted: > > (a) If the offense for which extradition is requested is regarded by the Requested Party to be of a political character or an offense connected with such an offense; or if the Requested Party concludes that the request for extradition has, in fact, been made to prosecute or punish the person sought for an offense of a political character or on account of his political opinions. However, any offense committed or attempted against a Head of State or a Head of Government or against a member of their families **shall not** be deemed to be an offense of a political character. [\*7] [emphasis] Would inspiring or participating in a coup aimed at replacing the head of state by violence “count” as “any offense committed or attempted against a Head of State or a Head of Government” if it can be proved to a reasonable standard to have happened? I honestly don’t know, but it seems likely. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/39 "2016-08-16T20:12:56Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I don’t understand. Was Gulen opposing Erdogan at our request? He was working well with Erdogan until apparently 2013 or so. No, events happen in the world that don’t require Americans. Gulen opposes Erdogan for his own reasons and isn’t an American puppet. And the United States isn’t running an anti-Erdogan opposition group with Gulen in charge. That said, the American government would probably prefer it if Gulen were in charge of Turkey rather than Erdogan. So while the American government doesn’t officially support Gulen, it hasn’t done anything to oppose him either. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434/40 "2016-08-16T22:47:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, events happen in the world that don’t require Americans. Gulen opposes Erdogan for his own reasons and isn’t an American puppet. And the United States isn’t running an anti-Erdogan opposition group with Gulen in charge. That said, the American government would probably prefer it if Gulen were in charge of Turkey rather than Erdogan. So while the American government doesn’t officially support Gulen, it hasn’t done anything to oppose him either. How can you, or any of us, know what is going on behind the scenes between Gulen and our government? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extradite-gulen-to-turkey/762434.md?page=3)