# Extraordinary Popular Delusions & the Madness of Crowds **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 8, 2016, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extraordinary-popular-delusions-the-madness-of-crowds/756793 "2016-06-08T00:37:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extraordinary-popular-delusions-the-madness-of-crowds/756793/41 "2016-06-09T13:49:51Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Unless you are someone like Donald Trump and can hold off the massed forces of the parties you have no chance of running. The current standard is that you must have personal appeal and resources greater than a major political party in order to run for office. > > This is June. The major parties haven’t actually selected their candidates yet but those candidates will be on the ballot in November in all 50 states no matter who they are. It is virtually, if not totally impossible for an independent candidate to now appear on the ballot nationwide in November. There is no reason for that except the corrupt control of the process by the parties. That’s not true either. If you can afford the filing fees and amass the necessary signatures on petitions, you have a 100% chance of running. You have a considerably lesser chance of **winning**. And you seem to be talking only about presidential elections. The vast majority of elections are at the local or state level, where the party has even less control over who claims to be one of them and throws a hat into the ring. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extraordinary-popular-delusions-the-madness-of-crowds/756793/42 "2016-06-09T15:37:41Z")
The reason “independents have no chance” is because there’s absolutely no advantage to running as an independent and plenty of downside, and there’s lots of advantage to running under one of the major parties and no downside. If you’re running for dogcatcher, you can put a D or an R after your name and get help stuffing envelopes and whatever. And you have absolutely no obligation to sign on to any party platform, or vote any particular way, or carry out any particular policy. The elected officials control the party, the party doesn’t control the elected officials. So if you’re running for dogcatcher tomorrow what makes sense? To run as an independent? Or run as a D or an R? If you want to win running as a D or an R will help, running as an independent will not help. And so 99% of the people who seriously want to hold elective office run under one of the major parties. And that means only cranks run as independents or under a minor party. If you really are a social democrat you don’t go out and find the party with the platform that most closely matches your ideology and run for office affiliated with them. You just run as a Democrat. While the Democratic party doesn’t match your ideology perfectly, so what? If you win elections they’ll help you win elections. Do you want to get elected or not? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extraordinary-popular-delusions-the-madness-of-crowds/756793/43 "2016-06-09T15:50:49Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > That’s not true either. If you can afford the filing fees and amass the necessary signatures on petitions, you have a 100% chance of running. You have a considerably lesser chance of **winning**. > > And you seem to be talking only about presidential elections. The vast majority of elections are at the local or state level, where the party has even less control over who claims to be one of them and throws a hat into the ring. At the local level the parties have more control. Do you think it’s easy to get signatures on petitions to run? The parties will challenge anyone they think is a threat, and you’ll have to fight those challenges in courts packed with party members. I’m not going to say the party control in every state has an overwhelming advantage because I only have experiences in the northeast states to look at, but in PA, NY, and RI independents have a very hard time making it on the ballot making their way through the system. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extraordinary-popular-delusions-the-madness-of-crowds/756793/44 "2016-06-09T15:53:06Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The reason “independents have no chance” is because there’s absolutely no advantage to running as an independent and plenty of downside, and there’s lots of advantage to running under one of the major parties and no downside. > > If you’re running for dogcatcher, you can put a D or an R after your name and get help stuffing envelopes and whatever. And you have absolutely no obligation to sign on to any party platform, or vote any particular way, or carry out any particular policy. > > The elected officials control the party, the party doesn’t control the elected officials. So if you’re running for dogcatcher tomorrow what makes sense? To run as an independent? Or run as a D or an R? If you want to win running as a D or an R will help, running as an independent will not help. And so 99% of the people who seriously want to hold elective office run under one of the major parties. And that means only cranks run as independents or under a minor party. > > If you really are a social democrat you don’t go out and find the party with the platform that most closely matches your ideology and run for office affiliated with them. You just run as a Democrat. While the Democratic party doesn’t match your ideology perfectly, so what? If you win elections they’ll help you win elections. Do you want to get elected or not? You just made my case. You need to affiliate with a major party to participate, that is wrong on it’s face. There are more independents now than members of any party, if not for the undue influence of the parties on the process they would fade away. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extraordinary-popular-delusions-the-madness-of-crowds/756793/45 "2016-06-09T15:55:46Z")
Yes, I see it all the time – people standing outside of markets collecting signatures. Depending on the office, it may not be very difficult at all. Court? I’ve never even heard of a court case where a party successfully sues to stop an individual from running as a candidate using the party name. That’s something they can’t even seem to go for national level candidates – Trump and Lyndon La Rouche come to mind. Can you point to some examples? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extraordinary-popular-delusions-the-madness-of-crowds/756793/46 "2016-06-09T16:11:10Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Without a revolution far beyond any past upheaval in American politics the parties will not let the American people choose their candidates. That’s nice. But I can’t even imagine what you think you mean by that revolution and you’ve given no clue that you do either. I mean, you want the government to control who becomes the parties’ nominees. Have you thought about the implications of that for five seconds? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extraordinary-popular-delusions-the-madness-of-crowds/756793/47 "2016-06-09T16:13:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You need to affiliate with a major party to participate Only to participate in that organization’s activities. Just like the 4H club or a shareholder meeting. Why is that wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extraordinary-popular-delusions-the-madness-of-crowds/756793/48 "2016-06-09T16:25:57Z")
TriPolar, you’re projecting your own beliefs. Just because you support outsider candidates doesn’t mean the majority of voters support those candidates. Because if the majority of voters supported those candidates, they wouldn’t be outsider candidates. There’s no conspiracy forcing people to vote for Hillary Clinton instead of Bernie Sanders; people are just making a choice you don’t agree with. The only way you’re going to “fix” that “problem” is by abandoning the core principle of democracy. Look at the Republicans. The leaders of the party made it clear they didn’t want Donald Trump as their candidate - but the voters picked him anyway (and this is in a system with no superdelegates). If political parties controlled the system like you claim, they would have denied Trump the nomination. I give Sanders credit. He ran a good campaign and did much better than I think anyone expected. He most likely changed the future direction of the party. But the reality here and now is that he came in second. Deal with that - just like Clinton supporters dealt with it in 2008. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extraordinary-popular-delusions-the-madness-of-crowds/756793/49 "2016-06-09T16:37:22Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Why? Because we’ve always done it this way? That’s the best reason to change things. > > If you’re saying it won’t happen I can’t argue with that. The parties have a stranglehold on the electoral process. Not even 1% of the elected and appointed officials in this country are independents. From the dog catcher to president candidates have to kowtow to the parties to stand a chance. Donald Trump rolled the Republican Party, but he still needed a party. And those few independents who have any success get tarred as outsiders even if they’ve spent their entire political career supporting one of the parties. Without a revolution far beyond any past upheaval in American politics the parties will not let the American people choose their candidates. A lot of people think the parties came into being and then took over, but parties grew organically from the system. You will have factions in any system. Heck, Alexander Hamilton complained about how it’s impossible to do away with factions without either doing away with all freedom or doing away with all differences between people. Parties are simply big factions. That’s all they are. People say “Hey, there’s a benefit to working together” and then they work together. You will not stop it. You can change the label, but you will not stop it. And I doubt there’s a good reason even to argue that you should stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extraordinary-popular-delusions-the-madness-of-crowds/756793/50 "2016-06-09T17:14:54Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > At the local level the parties have more control. Do you think it’s easy to get signatures on petitions to run? The parties will challenge anyone they think is a threat, and you’ll have to fight those challenges in courts packed with party members. I’m not going to say the party control in every state has an overwhelming advantage because I only have experiences in the northeast states to look at, but in PA, NY, and RI independents have a very hard time making it on the ballot making their way through the system. Here are the rules for getting on the Presidential ballot[in Texas](http://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/candidates/guide/president.shtml). For major parties, minor parties, independents & write-ins. We have open primaries here; other states do not. But every state has rules. Anyone interested in running can learn the rules. Getting signatures on petitions might be difficult, but no court cases are required. Of course, if you pay no attention to “minor” elections & offices but suddenly want Your Hero to magically appear on the Presidential ballot, coming out of a fog shortly before election day will frustrate you. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extraordinary-popular-delusions-the-madness-of-crowds/756793/51 "2016-06-10T19:58:57Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > they say it’s a fairer system to give all the party office holders and officials automatic status as delegates. And are those elected or appointed, and if appointed, by whom? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extraordinary-popular-delusions-the-madness-of-crowds/756793.md?page=2)