Extraordinary result in Quebec

Politics & Elections
21

Exactly. I applied for a federal government position in the diplomatic corps once, and the interview was by a couple of guys who sounded like Jean Chretien. It was clear that they did not want an English speaker for the position; “dey khwanted a Frensh, speaker, y’know?”

The irony was that I spoke French. Just not Quebecois French; I spoke Parisian. Plus, I spoke Russian. Great for the diplomatic corps, right?

Wrong. My Russian knowledge in pursuit of a diplomatic position meant nothing (except a full investigation of me and my friends by the RCMP), and my French, while fine by Parisian standards, was not up to Quebecois standards. Which basically translates to, “He’s from Ontario, outside of Quebec, and he’s an English-speaker, dump him.”

Do I resent that? Damn straight I do.

Oh, I could probably say more, but I am too old to care now.

ETA: The interviewers were always Quebecers. French-speakers, who seemed bound and determined to keep English-speakers out of the Canadian government.

Enough for now. If Quebec kept French within its borders, that would be one thing, but that it projects French outside, to the rest of Canada and demands that we use it in dealings with the federal government, yeah, that’s where the rest of us get tetchy. Here in Alberta, I do not like walking into the local Service Canada office, and being greeted with a hearty, Bonjour!

I’m in Alberta, fercrissake. We speak English. Stop trying to convince us that Canada speaks French.

22

Let me get this straight: you think that Quebec should leave Canada and you think it’s a bad idea?

I pit DrDeth
23

I would deeply resent that, too. And this is the problem with demanding fluent bilingualism in Canada’s “two official languages” which is really relevant only to Quebec.

I have a different resentment. Toronto had a subway system 12 years before Montreal did. But when Montreal started to build their subway, they went nuts with untold billions of dollars of federal funding, which continues to this day. Montreal today has a significantly smaller population than Toronto, but a vastly bigger and more modern subway system than Toronto does. Guess who paid for that?

One of the big reasons that Quebec remains in Canada is federal bribes. The feds also built an enormous international airport outside Montreal (Mirabel) that wasn’t needed, impractical to use because of distance from the city, and has now been relegated to only cargo use. Toronto, OTOH, still has only one super-busy major airport (Pearson International - YYZ). Toronto Island (YTZ) I don’t believe allows or accommodates jets, and YKZ is now closed.

24

A very good comment.

Speaking on the ground in Alberta, it reveals a lot.

Alberta has watched Quebec complain over years. “Waah! Nobody speaks French!” “Waah! We need more money!” “Waah . ..” Somebody something. And Quebec gets paid attention to by Ottawa. And plenty of dollars, of course, in equalization payments.

To a degree, I get it. Quebec complains, and Ottawa listens and allows the notwithstanding clause to override Canadians’ free speech rights in Quebec.. Alberta complains, not about the notwithstanding clause, in fairness; and Ottawa is silent. Completely ignoring Alberta. Fercryingoulloud,why?

This is the reason Alberta is holding a referendum on October 19. Because Canada (the federal entity) is somehow stifling Albertans’ efforts to do well. Let’s call a spade a fucking shovel: this referendum is a bunch of bullshit, designed to make Danielle Smith feel better about herself.

As a Canadian, and I say that proudly, I do get Alberta’s point. But at the same time, I think we do best when we operate as a federal entity. I am a Canadian, and I will always be proud to be one.

25

Quebec, of course, is as happy as un cochon dans la marde about the current arrangement, where they receive CAD$14B a year in equalization payments alone, have enacted what is in practice an “official access to French everywhere, official access to English only if someone happens to speak it and doesn’t take a disliking to you” policy under the name of “bilingualism,” and get to run rampant over English speakers, immigrants, Jews, Muslims, and First Nations with the language police and Franco-Canadian cultural supremacist bullshit. If Canada had any political will to do the right thing, the federal government would be cracking down on this in the name of human rights. Since that will never happen, why on Earth would they vote to leave and have to actually deal with the responsibilities of governing from their own tax base while every productive English speaker flees the Pepsireich to Ontario or the U.S.?

26

They are apparently thinking that one MAGA presidential loss means U.S. populist hyper-nationalist expansionism is gone. I am merely hoping that.

27

“Independence” … They want to become their own nation?! If so, why?

28

They grew up with their parents telling them they should be.

29

Only if you’re willing to ignore New Brunswick, which has always been officially bilingual, with about a third of the population currently fluent in both languages.

And let’s not forget Manitoba, which entered confederation with the promise of official bilingualism in respect of its French speakers (then 50% of the population), only for the federal and provincial governments not only to renege on this promise but also engage in what amounted to cultural and linguistic genocide, including of my own family and those of many of my friends and colleagues. A public consultation last year showed support for official bilingualism in the province, and the current provincial government is now developing a strategy for increasing the use of or access to French in the legislature, education, and public services.

Anyone who wants to claim that bilingualism is now irrelevant in Canada should at least acknowledge that this is due in part to the government’s active role in exterminating it outside of Quebec.

30

You can google for what they say, but I’d say they want the apparently fun parts of nationalism, like rah rah Quebecois, and stopping immigration, and giving the finger to King Charles, without the hard parts like having their own monetary system, military, and border controls.

Compared to Alberta nationalism, it seems to be less about money and more about love of country.

31

Yeah, that’s why I asked. Being your own nation is a big chore.

The heart is romantic but, unfortunately, not very bright.

32

If Quebec does vote for independence, will they have votes every 15-20 years about rejoining Canada?

33

I lived in Quebec right up to my college years so I’m quite familiar with the culture as it was at the time, but it did seem to become more extremist in later years. I really was not familiar with the circumstances in other provinces, so thank you for the education.

Certainly, the dominance of the English language and culture was very prevalent throughout Canada. It’s equally certain, however, that the French culture is passionate about preserving its language and culture and preventing it to an extraordinary extent from being “polluted” by foreign languages, unlike English which borrows from all over and doesn’t really much care about the intrusion of foreign words. English-speaking countries typically have nothing analogous to the Académie Française in France, and, God help us, nothing like the blatantly unconstitutional Language Police in Quebec.

34

Le couer a ses raisons que la raison ne connait pas.

35

Translation: “The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of.”

Very romantic, but devoid of any logical sense. LOL

36

So, how do you propose to change things? If everyone agrees that people have a point to their concerns, then why doesn’t it change? Do we have to endlessly endure the 'No’s of people who have financial interests in keeping the status quo just for the sake of people who are proud to be a Canadian?

We have a country where similar portions of the population in multiple provinces would rather leave than continue with the charade that we actually operate as a united country. We can’t even trade among ourselves fairly. Surely this needs addressing in a way that results in actual change or it will continue to be an issue until someone manages to get a leave referendum result?

I understand why the PQ would hold off on a referendum as they’ve seen the irrational hatred that Canadians have for Americans and what happened in the last federal election due to Trump and how Carney has used trade talks and sovereignty as levers to win seats. They don’t want to have to fight people’s emotions in a referendum or allow the feds to use those levers against them.

37

I was referring to your saying:

38

English speakers have the luxury of not having to worry about language policy because it is the dominant language in most places where it is natively spoken, and indeed globally. There is virtually no risk in the foreseeable future of it becoming endangered, even regionally. But try to see things from the perspective of Quebec, an enclave of mostly French speakers surrounded by a more populous and better-resourced anglophone culture. (This includes the US, which Quebec can’t hope to rival in its output of news and entertainment media.) Quebeckers have already seen—in living memory, no less—what happens when language rights and regulations are not enforced, or when governments adopt policies that, by intention or negligence, serve to erode, override, or exterminate local culture. They do not want to become another Manitoba, where French was legislatively eradicated, or another Latvia, where the Soviet authorities paid lip service to preserving Latvian as an official language while at the same time enacting economic policies that encouraged mass immigration of monolingual Russian speakers.

39

I started this thread over the bizarrness of a party going from a solid majority 4 years ago to no seats, but it immediately evolved into questions of bilingualism and separation. So I would like to comment of these questions.

First comment. Yes the 1995 referendum was close, but not as close as it was called. Ballot counters in Anglo districts were instructed to throw out any ballot that didn’t conform precisely to the rules. Lines that didn’t fully bisect the circle, stray pencil marks elsewhere, any excuse to discard a ballot. Counters threw out half the ballots in at least one precinct. A slim majority yes would not have survived a recount. Those ballots were kept in secret for a couple decades before they were thrown away. Second the referendum authorized the government only to enter into negotiations with the Feds with a second vote on any deal. In fact, that was a lie. Parizeau was prepared to announce the night of the referendum that negotiations had failed and Quebec was now separate. He admitted as much.

FPTP is a terrible system in a multi-party system. As pointed out above 14% can get you 0 seats, while 29% can give you a near majority. But I don’t like PR either; it gives too much power to the party leadership that sets up the list. No system is perfect (Arrow’s theorem; google it) but I like ranked choice the best. I don’t much care for the US primary system either. Maybe if voting were mandatory, it would work, but generally the most extreme voters vote in primaries with obvious results. Non-MAGA Republicans in the US have virtually no chance.

As for bilingualism, I am in a funny position. Much as I tried, I could never become comfortable in French. I can (or could, anyway) speak it reasonably well, but I could never learn to hear it properly. So I have no right, for example, to receive medical care in English and the doctor I was assigned to hung up on me when I tried to speak English to her. And this is official policy. Maybe she knows no English (I have never met her and only telephone appointments were available), but the assignment was made by a board that knows I am Anglo. I am currently using a private physician—at my expense. My wife is too since they have not even assigned her a physician. She is fully bilingual; in fact was a professional translator.

40

This is all news to me and is absolutely appalling in its brazen illegality. It’s astonishing that such third-world tactics could happen in Canada, but Quebec is a thing unto itself.

While the rest of Canada works hard to make French available for all public services across the country, Quebec is moving in the opposite direction even where English is widely spoken and genuinely necessary. What you’re describing is malpractice and in any civilized jurisdiction would be the subject of a lawsuit. The implication seems to be that if you cannot speak French, you don’t deserve health care.

I’m ever more appalled at the situation in Quebec.