# extreme atheism
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 18, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896 "2004-10-18T20:32:23Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/41 "2004-10-20T19:11:37Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> Just after I hit submit _sigh_ I thought of someone living. What about Penn Jilette? He’s been known to be pretty damn snarky to theists.
I liked penn before. Now I like him more.
(not for being snarky to theists, but for being an Atheist)
Richard Dawkings rings a bell. What did he write?
Wasn’t Douglas Adams a pretty ‘hard’ Atheist? And what about Terry Pratchett?
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### Author:  [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/42 "2004-10-20T19:17:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Right on. If we’re going to have an agenda, I demand that we at least have a big summit to formulate it, and that afterward we implement a “convert someone and win a toaster” plan. You know, like the one the gays have. Seems to be working for them.
And then, the oral sex!
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/43 "2004-10-20T19:24:44Z")
> [@Lobsang](#):
>
> Richard Dawkings rings a bell. What did he write?
The Selfish Gene, among others. Douglas Adams was a fan.
> [@](#):
>
> Wasn’t Douglas Adams a pretty ‘hard’ Atheist? And what about Terry Pratchett?
Adams liked to describe himself as a ‘radical atheist,’ but wrote that he used the term to keep people from thinking he meant agnostic or trying to argue with him about it. I don’t know that he ever tried to convince people of the folly of their views or did anything extreme, but I kinda doubt it.
I don’t know much about Pratchett, but based on what I do know, I imagine he was pretty much the same, just not as good. 😉
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### Author:  [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/44 "2004-10-20T19:49:36Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#):
>
> For the unBritish (bolding mine): [Richard Dawkins](http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/dawkins.html)Shame really, since he is without doubt one of the best science writers on the planet.
I don’t know if it is a shame. He may be using too broad of a brush, but he has a point, I think. I am going to make a flawed analogy between racism and religion, from the perspective of an atheist looking in.
Racist thought is flawed because it is applying illogical stereotypes and hatreds to a particular race or to any other race but the Racist’s.
Religious thought is flawed because it accepts as true (and for the most part proven) what is unprovable, unknowable, etc.
I would think that most people would see teaching racism to young children is wrong and could, I guess, be considered abusive in that it prevents healthy thought patterns to form naturally. In the same sense an atheist could see the teaching of religious thought as preventing healthy thought patterns. This is where he seems to use too broad of a brush, since he seems to assume that all religious teaching stifles free thought.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/45 "2004-10-20T19:50:04Z")
Just to hijack a skosh, why is being snarky to theists a problem? It’s not enough that theists have control over every aspect of public life, they also have to demand total respect for their unsubstantiated beliefs?
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### Author:  [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/46 "2004-10-20T19:54:08Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> Just to hijack a skosh, why is being snarky to theists a problem? It’s not enough that theists have control over every aspect of public life, they also have to demand total respect for their unsubstantiated beliefs?
It’s not nice to be snarky to people.
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### Author:  [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/47 "2004-10-20T20:00:17Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> Just to hijack a skosh, why is being snarky to theists a problem?
I personally don’t think it should be, but try spending Christmas Eve with a bunch of practicing Lutherans, and you’ll see how very disruptive of everyone’s happiness derisive skepticism, however well deserved, can be.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/48 "2004-10-20T20:00:34Z")
If the Dawkins speech quoted above is considered extremist, then atheists really do need the summit I proposed, because we need to get some aggressive PR going.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/49 "2004-10-20T20:03:33Z")
> [@Loopydude](#):
>
> I personally don’t think it should be, but try spending Christmas Eve with a bunch of practicing Lutherans, and you’ll see how very disruptive of everyone’s happiness derisive skepticism, however well deserved, can be.
Well, that’s a different matter–one ought not to go out of one’s way to be offensove on a special holiday. However, that does not mean that religion should be immune to critical analysis completely.
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### Author:  [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)
#### Post date: [October 20, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/50 "2004-10-20T20:57:25Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> Well, that’s a different matter–one ought not to go out of one’s way to be offensove on a special holiday. However, that does not mean that religion should be immune to critical analysis completely.
But it’s only a special holiday because the faith says so. What better time to express doubt than when the effects of faith are most evident?
Anyhow, every day may as well be Chrismas in the minds of some. If you are skeptical, you are churlish. Used car salesmen? Fair game. Politicians? Of course. Jesus? Go get your kevlar vest, buddy…
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/51 "2004-10-21T01:37:32Z")
> [@gobear](#):
>
> Just to hijack a skosh, why is being snarky to theists a problem? It’s not enough that theists have control over every aspect of public life, they also have to demand total respect for their unsubstantiated beliefs?
Since I was the first to bring it up, I merely used it as an example of someone not just simply saying, “Well, that’s fine, but I don’t believe in X, so I’ll do my thing and you do your’s,” but as actively looking down on someone else and using their beliefs to feel superior.
Honestly, I don’t think Jillette or Randi are even in remotely the same field as Falwell (or for that matter, as O’Hair or Rand). Jillette was the only prominent, outspoken atheist I could think of. That’s all.
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/52 "2004-10-21T02:24:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> Not even close. Newdow took a case to court because he felt the pledge as recited by teachers violated the separation of church and state. If he’d won - he’s trying again because in reality, the Supreme Court dodged the case - the pledge would have to be amended, that’s all. For that matter, students could still say it, it’s the issue of state sanctioning that’s in dispute. He’s not trying to pass a law barring the word “god” from being used in schools, nor is he trying to train others to influence the court system to perpetuate his point of view.
Well, but that has been addressed before – if we insist on a true parallel to Falwell then the role becomes almost necessarily vacant. The most that can be aspired to is an equivalency of _perception_ and in that case, the only one that came even close to creating a widespread public _ **perception** _ of (strident) advocacy of an “agenda” was Murray-O’Hair.
BTW, it seems “agenda” is one of those words like “liberal” that has been hijacked into some sort of negative connotation. Of course there’s an atheist agenda, for those who want to sign on to it. It’s to do what it takes to reverse a set of prior actions that have had the result of _“shoving religion down our throats (and into our politics, and on our money, and in our Pledges)”_. And a fine agenda it is, for those interested in fighting that fight.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/53 "2004-10-21T04:38:52Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#):
>
> Well, but that has been addressed before – if we insist on a true parallel to Falwell then the role becomes almost necessarily vacant. The most that can be aspired to is an equivalency of _perception_ and in that case, the only one that came even close to creating a widespread public _ **perception** _ of (strident) advocacy of an “agenda” was Murray-O’Hair.
I agreed with that in advance. Since it was the OP posting and (I felt) asking out of curiosity, I thought I should tell him more about Michael Newdow and why he doesn’t fit the role. I don’t think Newdow annoys atheists the way Falwell annoys tolerant theists.
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### Author:  [@alterego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alterego)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/54 "2004-10-21T04:45:03Z")
Isn’t Sigmund Freud a prime candidate? Never heard of this falwell guy before but I must say that his website is _pretty_ bad.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/55 "2004-10-21T11:35:46Z")
hmmmm
Doesn’t work for me as a band name.
How about a line of clothing?
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### Author:  [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/56 "2004-10-21T11:51:17Z")
alterego writes:
\> Never heard of this falwell guy before but I must say that his website is pretty
\> bad.
Say what? Where have you been the past 25 years?
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/57 "2004-10-21T12:16:02Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Say what? Where have you been the past 25 years?
Well, not born for the first three. This could be simply an example of a youth unconcerned about the passing scene or it could be someone who has not been in the U.S. during the various shenanigans Falwell has pulled. (Outside a brief eruption in September, 2001, I have not heard from Falwell for several years, except when following Gay Rights issues (with his gay assistant who announced he could no longer pretend that he had been “cured” to heterosexuality).
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### Author:  [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/58 "2004-10-21T12:52:00Z")
> [@Lobsang](#):
>
> And what about Terry Pratchett?
Terry Pratchett would take the piss out of just about anything, I would guess. A position more complementary to atheism than theism I suspect.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/59 "2004-10-21T13:08:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#):
>
> Since I was the first to bring it up, I merely used it as an example of someone not just simply saying, “Well, that’s fine, but I don’t believe in X, so I’ll do my thing and you do your’s,” but as actively looking down on someone else and using their beliefs to feel superior.
>
> Honestly, I don’t think Jillette or Randi are even in remotely the same field as Falwell (or for that matter, as O’Hair or Rand). Jillette was the only prominent, outspoken atheist I could think of. That’s all.
Well, it’s not so much a matter of feeling superior (unless believing oneself to be right is "feeling superior), but merely being able to express disbelief in sacred dogma without getting oneself killed or maimed by the one of the flock. For instance, I’m sure that some Christians believe that Penn & Teller should be arrested or killed for mocking the Bible on their Showtime program. The surest way to get death threats sent to a skeptic is to treat the Bible or the tenets of Christianity with levity.
Saying that you, **Guin** are stupid for believing in the Bible is rude and wrong; but I see no problem with showing the Bible’s flaws and examining the inconsistencies of theism. I don’t think that relgion should be excluded from skeptical analysis.
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [October 21, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-atheism/269896/60 "2004-10-21T13:49:52Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> Well, not born for the first three. This could be simply an example of a youth unconcerned about the passing scene or it could be someone who has not been in the U.S. during the various shenanigans Falwell has pulled. (Outside a brief eruption in September, 2001, I have not heard from Falwell for several years, except when following Gay Rights issues (with his gay assistant who announced he could no longer pretend that he had been “cured” to heterosexuality).
And that’s yet another thing that we mentioned before – Falwell (or O’Hair) is iconic mostly to _some_ segments of _American_ public opinion. If you were not in a position to be up to speed of the goings-on of American church-and-state politics and the “Televangelist” phenomenon during the 1975-95 period, Falwell is at most just one more blowhard from the American far right.
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