# Extreme grammar help: why no comma? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 9, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-grammar-help-why-no-comma/771216 "2016-11-09T15:26:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![simply\_cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@simply\_cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simply_cats)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-grammar-help-why-no-comma/771216/1 "2016-11-09T15:26:40Z")
In the sentence I hope he chose me to be in the play “The Sound of Music.” My colleague and I both agree there should be no comma after play. We both seem to recall that there is a particular name for that construction, but we are both drawing a blank on it. Anyone out there know the term right offhand? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-grammar-help-why-no-comma/771216/2 "2016-11-09T15:53:34Z")
The construction is called [apposition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apposition). A restrictive appositive doesn’t call for commas. A non-restrictive appositive does. > [@](#): > > A restrictive appositive provides information essential to identifying the phrase in apposition. It limits or clarifies that phrase in some crucial way, and the meaning of the sentence would change if the appositive were removed. In English, restrictive appositives are not set off by commas. The sentences below use restrictive appositives. Here and elsewhere in this section, the relevant phrases are marked as the appositive phrase[sub]A[/sub] or the phrase in apposition[sub]P[/sub]. > > ``` > My friend[sub]P[/sub] Alice Smith[sub]A[/sub] likes jelly beans. - I have many friends, but I am restricting my statement to the one named Alice Smith. > He likes the television show[sub]P[/sub] The Simpsons[sub]A[/sub]. - There are many television shows, and he likes that particular one. > > ``` > > A non-restrictive appositive provides information not critical to identifying the phrase in apposition. It provides non-essential information, and the essential meaning of the sentence would not change if the appositive were removed. In English, non-restrictive appositives are typically set off by commas.[1] The sentences below use non-restrictive appositives. > > ``` > Alice Smith[sub]P[/sub], my friend[sub]A[/sub], likes jelly beans. - The fact that Alice is my friend was not necessary to identify her. > I visited Canada[sub]P[/sub], a beautiful country[sub]A[/sub]. - The appositive is not needed to identify Canada. > The first to arrive at the house[sub]A[/sub], she[sub]P[/sub] unlocked the front door. > > ``` You can decide whether the identification of the play is essential or non-essential information and not-use or use the comma in accordance. ---
**Author:** ![jepflast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@jepflast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jepflast)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-grammar-help-why-no-comma/771216/3 "2016-11-10T11:56:04Z")
According to Cambridge Grammar, the original example (_the play “The Sound of Music”_) is called an integrated appositive, which may be either restrictive or non-restrictive, not using commas in either case. (The example they give for a non-restrictive, integrated appositive is _my husband George_.) The kind of appositive that does need to be set off by commas (or sometimes by dashes or something else) is called a supplementary appositive. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-grammar-help-why-no-comma/771216/4 "2016-11-10T12:34:13Z")
So the comma is optional? What about the quotation marks around “The Sound of Music.”? Is it really necessary to signify that “The Sound of Music.” is a play? Why not just say “I hope he chose me to be in the The Sound of Music”? I mostly come on this dilemma when using proper names eg. My brother, George is ill. I could leave out the name, but a, I want to refer to him by name later and b, I have more than one brother. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-grammar-help-why-no-comma/771216/5 "2016-11-10T17:22:33Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > So the comma is optional? > > What about the quotation marks around “The Sound of Music.”? > > Is it really necessary to signify that “The Sound of Music.” is a play? Why not just say “I hope he chose me to be in the The Sound of Music”? _The Sound of Music_ was also a movie. Maybe they’re doing a remake. It could be a tv show or a radio play or a ballet. Repetition and reinforcement are standard in language, both spoken and written, because it’s so easy to mistake references without context. Notice that I italicized _The Sound of Music_. That’s a matter of style. Most style guides suggest that you italicize titles of plays, movies, books, record albums, and other long works of art. Short stories and individual songs are marked with quotes. You can find guides that use other conventions, though, and quotes instead of italics is a common one. If you aren’t writing for something that refers to a particular style guide, you’re free to use whatever style you want, including no style at all. Here on the Dope, lots of people lots of the time don’t use quotes or italics or any other marking. Sometimes I don’t myself, and I’m conditioned by decades of writing to do so anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-grammar-help-why-no-comma/771216/6 "2016-11-10T17:55:53Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > So the comma is optional? > … > I mostly come on this dilemma when using proper names eg. My brother, George is ill. I could leave out the name, but a, I want to refer to him by name later and b, I have more than one brother. No, the commas are not optional. The commas are used to distinguish between restrictive and non-restrictive apposition, and therefore carry meaning. Your sentence about George is incorrect since it has only one comma. It should be either: My brother, George, is ill. Non-restrictive apposition – would be used when you have only one brother, or the specific brother is otherwise clear from context. The name “George” is non-essential information and the meaning of the sentence would be unchanged if you removed it. My brother George is ill. Restrictive apposition – would be used when you have more than one brother so the name is essential to make clear the meaning of the sentence. –Mark ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-grammar-help-why-no-comma/771216/7 "2016-11-10T18:09:16Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > So the comma is optional? There are degrees of “wrong”. By current standards, I think one comma would be assumed to be a typo; if not it would indicate poor literacy. I think **markn+**'s distinction in meaning between no commas or a pair of comms is correct, and making this distinction accurately would probably be expected in a style guide, and would mark the writer as highly literate; but, conversely, failing to do so would not be seen as a glaring error. In fact, I think that the form without commas might be a valid variant for either meaning.