# Extreme vs. Extreme in 2016 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 21, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788 "2014-12-21T01:35:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/61 "2014-12-23T23:51:14Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Oh come on. Those people who are gun enthusiasts have never voted for a Democratic presidential candidate in their lives. What are they going to do, cast double votes against Warren? Would they vote for Hillary? Did they vote for Obama? I sincerely doubt it. Democrats have already lost the gun voters. We can’t lose them again. It’s not just the regular right vs left polarity. In order to win the WH, a democrat needs to win over independent voters, and a lot of independents are wary of gun control legislation. Didn’t you notice how fast Obama backed off the subject in 2008? Any democrat running for president with gun control being a central issue of his or her campaign would be toast. America fucking loves guns. A lot of democrats fucking love their guns too. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/62 "2014-12-24T01:55:57Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > It’s not just the regular right vs left polarity. In order to win the WH, a democrat needs to win over independent voters, and a lot of independents are wary of gun control legislation. Didn’t you notice how fast Obama backed off the subject in 2008? > > Any democrat running for president with gun control being a central issue of his or her campaign would be toast. America fucking loves guns. A lot of democrats fucking love their guns too. Your point isn’t entirely without merit. However, I think the independent voter is largely a mythical creature. For the presidential race, most people vote for their favorite party, whether or not they claim to be of that party. If you voted for Obama, you probably voted for Kerry, Gore, Clinton and so on back in time. If you voted for Romney, you probably voted for McCain, Bush, Dole, and Bush going back. If you are really really against gun control, you probably never voted for a Democrat for president. I’ll grant that if a Democrat ever said he favors stricter gun control and ran for president, he would lose some votes. But by and large I think they’d be in states he wouldn’t carry anyway. Sure, he’d lose votes in Wyoming and Texas. Who cares? And he might lose some in Michigan and Pennsylvania, but not nearly enough to lose the state. As issues go, I don’t see guns as a deal breaker simply because the voters are already divided by party on this matter. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/63 "2014-12-24T13:51:25Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Could you maybe get both of the anti-gun-control voters who might consider voting Democratic to post here directly rather than presuming to speak for them? As much as I hate to defend **adaher** , there is an interesting argument here. Obama and Clinton lost the gun enthusiasts, but were deeply in the pocket of major financial interests almost from the time they started their presidential bids. It’s not a one-dimensional argument. Maybe to win as a populist without the support of the Wall Street crooks, one needs some gun owners on one’s side as well. Now, that said, a Democrat winning a question of getting out the vote. And since Republicans and Democrats are split on “social issues,” it’s alternatively possible that Democrats need the gun\* control\* vote to win. So absent some pretty finely differentiated data, I’m going to say unproven. ---
**Author:** ![CGav8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@CGav8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CGav8r)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/64 "2014-12-24T14:51:38Z")
I can’t imagine Warren losing any states that Obama one - I think she would draw in some higher percentage of female votes than Obama did, and her liberal street cred would get some dems off their asses. Also, she does well with the anti-Wall Street rhetoric - it’s very populist and would pull in some moderates and swing voters that feel that the bankers have gotten away with murder and Main Street has taken it in the shorts. And her anti-gun stance isn’t going to really make much of a net difference from Obama - doubt there were too many gun nuts who pulled the lever for him anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/65 "2014-12-24T15:13:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There’s a lot more to helping the middle class than going after the banking industry. On the list of things troubling middle class families, the banking industry is pretty low on that list. Jobs is #1. Read the article – jobs is what this is **about.** > [@](#): > > The common theme around Weiss’ work is that he engages in deals that reward top executives, while rank-and-file workers get the shaft. CEOs like Motorola Mobility’s Sanjay Jha get huge golden parachute deals after getting purchased. Executives at the new companies make fortunes in bonuses and stock options. Those who produce the products get a pink slip. > > In addition, many of Weiss’ merger deals have led to monopolies, from AB InBev’s control of the beer market, to the 2007 deal between Nestlé, Gerber and Novartis Medical Nutrition, creating a company that sells 81 percent of the nation’s baby food. These monopolies drive down supplier prices in the same way Wal-Mart’s dominance of retail impoverishes the companies who sell them goods. It’s the opposite of what is supposed to enrich capitalism, the constant competition that creates benefits for consumers on both price and quality. > > The deals also exhibit the modern hallmark of corporate America: financial engineering. Decisions are made to satisfy shareholder clamoring for short-term profits rather than any long-term vision about building a quality business. The manager class extracts value for their own ends, and the rotted husk of the company either sinks or swims. It doesn’t matter to those who have already completed the looting. > > Through brokering these deals, Weiss facilitated this transformation of American capitalism, as a cog in the wheel of a corporate strategy that has led to a stunning gap between productivity and wages and historic levels of inequality. The deindustrialization of the country has turned us into a nation of financial managers and the service workers who attend to them, virtually eliminating the middle class. Weiss became a very wealthy man from this process, which every Democrat from the president on down likes to decry. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/66 "2014-12-24T15:17:16Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Obama and Clinton lost the gun enthusiasts, but were deeply in the pocket of major financial interests almost from the time they started their presidential bids. > > It’s not a one-dimensional argument. Maybe to win as a populist without the support of the Wall Street crooks, one needs some gun owners on one’s side as well. Ted Cruz isn’t going to win Wall Street either. Remember that he doesn’t want to raise the U.S. debt limit, which would be catastrophic to Wall Street. His suicidal economic views make Warren look like Alan Greenspan. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/67 "2014-12-24T15:18:11Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > America fucking loves guns. Physically. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/68 "2014-12-24T17:05:34Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Obama and Clinton lost the gun enthusiasts Well, that’s my point. They had a (D) after their names, which for gun enthusiasts stands for “(D)on’t vote for this guy”. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/69 "2014-12-24T18:06:53Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > There are three possibilities: > > Wall Street continues high on the hog; Main Street languishes: easy Warren victory. > > Wall Street bubble bursts; Main Street takes it on the chin: easy Warren victory. > > Prosperity finally arrives on Main Street: tossup. That assumes that Warren can get Americans to blame Wall Street for their problems. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/70 "2014-12-24T23:38:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That assumes that Warren can get Americans to blame Wall Street for their problems. Wall Street isn’t exactly beloved right now. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/71 "2014-12-25T03:21:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > So benefit cuts are not anti- whoever’s benefit is getting cut? Everyone is a taxpayer. Everyone is a “benefit” recipient (beneficiary of public spending). Everyone believes that _certain_ combinations of taxes and spending are to their net advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/72 "2014-12-25T03:33:27Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I think the independent voter is largely a mythical creature. For the presidential race, most people vote for their favorite party, whether or not they claim to be of that party. If you voted for Obama, you probably voted for Kerry, Gore, Clinton and so on back in time. If you voted for Romney, you probably voted for McCain, Bush, Dole, and Bush going back. That party loyalty is “probably” consistent for “most” people may be true, but it does not follow that independent/swing voters do not exist, or do not make a difference. Why do you think results varied between the candidates you listed, if party vote was so fixed for everyone? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/73 "2014-12-25T06:43:42Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > That party loyalty is “probably” consistent for “most” people may be true, but it does not follow that independent/swing voters do not exist, or do not make a difference. Why do you think results varied between the candidates you listed, if party vote was so fixed for everyone? Obviously some exist, but varying turnout is probably much more of a factor. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/74 "2014-12-25T13:33:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There’s a lot more to helping the middle class than going after the banking industry. On the list of things troubling middle class families, the banking industry is pretty low on that list. Jobs is #1. Keeping their families safe is #2. Keeping their taxes from being too much of a burden is #3. What of these have Republicans done better than Democrats? Who is against investment in infrastructure, other than the trivial Keystone Pipeline? Who consistently opposed extending unemployment benefits for those still looking for work? If jobs is your main priority, why would you vote Republican? Keeping families safe- who stonewalled the appointment of a Surgeon General? Whose intransigence brought forth the sequester that made cuts to the military? Which party was in office that ignored intelligence leading up to 9/11? Which party was in office and did nothing when a hurricane drowned a major American city? If keeping families safe is your priority, why would you vote Republican? As for income taxes, I’ll grant the Republicans want to lower them. Even when we can’t afford to. But they want to lower them for the wealthy. Sure, the poor get a scrap of gristle and bone while the wealthy get the prime cut. But Republicans don’t mind raising income tax one bit, because it’s regressive as hell. They like to chip away at the EIC. They don’t mind regressive cigarette and liquor taxes at all. So if taxes are your priority, why vote Republican? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/75 "2014-12-26T05:23:58Z")
I suspect Warren would win, but it might be close. Even given Dems’ current built-in advantage in the Electoral College and the generally-good economic outlook leading up to 2016, the voters tend to favor the “out” party after the other has held the White House for two terms. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/76 "2014-12-26T15:45:48Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] But Republicans don’t mind raising income tax one bit, because it’s regressive as hell. [/QUOTE] The federal income tax is regressive? What are you talking about? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/77 "2014-12-27T00:10:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The federal income tax is regressive? What are you talking about? > > Regards, > Shodan It was a mis-type on my part. I meant sales tax. Thank you for letting me know. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/78 "2014-12-27T03:10:37Z")
> [@CGav8r](#): > > And her anti-gun stance isn’t going to really make much of a net difference from Obama - doubt there were too many gun nuts who pulled the lever for him anyway. I think that the point is that Democrats have been winning without gun rights voters but with Wall Street money. If Warren alienates Wall Street, what replaces Wall Street support? Clearly not gun rights voters. So that may make it harder. All of this is moot. Warren doesn’t seem to want to be promoted to the level of her own incompetence–unlike Obama eight years ago. Rafael Edward Cruz has shown leadership. Granted, it was in service of dumb ideas, but he has the career theory down. If he didn’t look so much like a Mesoamerican native, he’d have a real shot of destroying this country. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/79 "2014-12-27T03:34:19Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I think that the point is that Democrats have been winning without gun rights voters but with Wall Street money. If Warren alienates Wall Street, what replaces Wall Street support? Clearly not gun rights voters. So that may make it harder. Who do you think got more campaign contributions from Wall Street in 2012 - Obama or Romney? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788/80 "2014-12-30T03:10:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That assumes that Warren can get Americans to blame Wall Street for their problems. That should not be difficult. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extreme-vs-extreme-in-2016/707788.md?page=5)