# Extremists Have Utterly Ruined the GOP: Time for a Multi-Party System
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 4, 2009, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525 "2009-10-04T06:37:46Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/1 "2009-10-04T06:37:46Z")
I have always been in favor of a true multi-party system of governance for the USA. By “true” I mean a system where members of 3rd, 4th and 5th parties can potentially get elected to a meaningful number of seats of Congress. That is not now the case, nor has it ever been.
I’m not sure how minor parties could have any members elected to Congress unless there was a fundamental change to the way we elect Congress people in the U.S. Personally, I would like to see proportional representation here **but that is not the point I wish to discuss in this thread**.
The traditionally conservative party in the U.S., the Republicans, has been so corrupted by the infiltration of ultra-right-wing elements that they are no longer considered by anyone—including the rational members of the GOP—to represent the true version, and vision, of American Conservatism.
I believe that it is the mainstream GOP’s own fault that their radical-right faction has been allowed to gain so much influence that they now control the entire party, for all intents and purposes. IMO, that is because 40 or 50 years ago the GOP decided to court the far right-wing in order gain more party members; more votes. The prime example of this is when they embraced the opportunity during the Civil Rights movement of the 60’s to persuade large numbers of Southern Democrats to switch parties.
Thus, the GOP sabotaged their long-range hopes and goals–they sacrificed their very _raison d’etre_—merely to win elections in the short-to-medium term. It was selfish and short-sighted, but then, politics is dangerous game that often demands winning at any cost. In fairness to the GOP, I truly believe they never realized just how out of control this would get. I don’t think they ever could’ve dreamed how far away from traditional Conservatism this misbegotten strategy would take their party. But now they, and the rest of the country, are paying a very heavy price.
Yes, the traditional GOP is to blame for their own undoing but I only mention this only context. Besides, it is only my opinion, and like the proportional representation concept mentioned above, **it is also not important in terms of the point I want to make in this thread**.
\*So get to the point, already! \*
OK, the point is this: Many intelligent, thoughtful Americans of all political stripes have recently become more and more alarmed by the hijacking of a grand, old, party by knuckle-dragging bigots. You hear talk that the GOP “needs to get its house in order”; they must “purge their party of nutsy religious ideologues” and so forth. You hear this in the quality “salons” of political discourse from all sides of the political fracas—it is also thus right here on the old SDMB.
The problem is, I don’t think the GOP _can_ rid themselves of this menace, even if they had the stomach to engage in the bloodletting that would be necessary to accomplish it. The GOP simply CAN’T cast these loonies adrift because in our current two-party system, they have no where else to go.
These morally-meddling, backward and uneducated albatrosses need, and deserve (for better or worse) their own party–a party that will stand up and defend lunacy and backwardness full-throat. A party that is not afraid to advocate mandatory Christian prayer in public schools, creationism, and other planks of a platform that is very scary to most of us, but is considered righteous and necessary by a minority of Americans,
Please note that I am quite serious about this. I want them to be fairly represented in government because I feel that all segments of our population should have a voice in policy. Of course, I have ulterior motives too: I want to see the lunatic fringe—whether right or left—marginalized. I want to see them stop wasting the time and effort of serious politicians who are trying to create realistic policy for this country.
I know that the sooner the dull-witted noise makers are exiled from the GOP, the sooner we can have meaningful arguments about the direction this country will go in the future. It’s a bit like: “Go back to the kiddie table; the grown-ups are trying to talk.”
The only way for this to happen is by allowing 4 or more parties to represent the American citizens in Congress. Two parties can’t do it. There is just too large a spectrum of different ideologies in America. If you try to represent all those different beliefs with only two monolithic parties you end up with both of those parties paying lip-service to the crazies at election-time and during floor speeches, but then inevitably rushing back to the center when it comes time to pass a bill.
We can do so much better.
---
### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/2 "2009-10-04T06:49:46Z")
So what legislative changes do you propose? Proportional representation?
---
### Author:  [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/3 "2009-10-04T07:54:02Z")
As I said-- I am in favor of proportional representation, but that is not the point I wish to make in this thread. My point is that the Republicans will not be able to rid their party of the extreme-right wing even though I believe that many of them would like to. I think that we need more than two viable parties in the U.S. to represent the all of the different political factions we have here.
At the very minimum there are fundamentalist Christian extreme right-wing moralists; traditional Conservatives (small government); Labor/American liberals (labor supporters); and quasi democratic-socialists (large central government with strong regulations and large social programs).
I don’t think there is any way for the Democratic and Republican parties to fairly represent all of those factions. And there are certainly a lot more pieces in the American political puzzle than just the four that I mentioned–it gets even worse when you consider all of them, too.
I see the GOP’s current problem of how to deal with the ultra-right-wing religionists as the strongest indication yet of our two parties not being able to fairly represent American citizen’s interests.
---
### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/4 "2009-10-04T08:07:53Z")
But it \*is \*the point. The current U.S. system is geared for two parties and two parties only - if the Republicans split into two, the only result would be the Democrats sweeping the elections. Everyone knows this, which is why it’ll never happen.
The only way to change things is to change the system.
---
### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/5 "2009-10-04T08:16:59Z")
Without a respectable opposition the Democrats would break apart as well. The Democrats are a very loose coalition as it is.
---
### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/6 "2009-10-04T08:30:24Z")
So long as they want to win elections, they’ll stick together.
---
### Author:  [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/7 "2009-10-04T08:41:13Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> Without a respectable opposition the Democrats would break apart as well. The Democrats are a very loose coalition as it is.
That is part of what I (pretty much a Democrat) fear, but maybe not in the way that you meant it.
I think this country needs vigorous, intelligent debate to set good policy. I don’t think that we are getting that type of debate right now. We are debating about death panels and the President’s birth certificate when that is all total nonsense.
I would love to see that kind of total bullshit come from some extremist party–not from the Republicans. From the Republicans I would expect intelligent differences of opinion over just how much taxation is necessary or whether the feds should pay for secondary education for qualified students.
As it is now, we don’t get around to intelligently debating things like this. We waste time with creationism and “You lie!!!”
Put all that crap into a separate, extremist party (and put the goofy anarchists in their own leftist extremist party) and let the GOP and Demos talk about the ideal size of government and corporate regulation.
But you can’t do that in less the parties are “real”-- unless they can actually have some seats in Congress so they can get on the floor and rant and rave like rabid dogs. Otherwise, they won’t join the third and fourth parties–they’ll just continue to sap the strength and dilute the positions of the Democrats and Republicans.
---
### Author:  [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/8 "2009-10-04T08:47:55Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> So long as they want to win elections, they’ll stick together.
Yes. That is what is bugging me. Though I certainly understand wanting to win.
[sarcasm]
Why not just create **one** big party that encompasses the entire spectrum from ultra-right to ultra-left? That way you win every time!
[/sarcasm]
I’m only half-joking though. That is close to what we have right now and that is my complaint. How are Sarah Palin and Olympia Snowe in the same party? What do they have in common?
How does Israel deal with all of their different parties? How well do the parties represent the different interests of the citizens? Israel often has to form coalition governments, yes? Is it proportional representation there? How well does your parliamentary system work?
---
### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/9 "2009-10-04T09:38:27Z")
What do you see as the most extremist principles of the ‘new’ Republican party?
Seriously, I hear this ‘extremist’ thing thrown around a lot, but I’m having a hard time matching policy to the word.
Do they, like the Gingrich era Republicans, want to abolish the Department of Education? Do they, like the Reagan era Republicans, want to abolish the Interstate Commerce Commission, cut the size of government dramatically, or pass an amendment that forbids the government from running deficits?
When Bush, who was supposedly in bed with the Christian right, was in power for eight years, did he fight to ban abortions? Persecute gays? Did he cut government funding, or throw people off of welfare, or deregulate the economy, or eviscerate labor regulations, or anything like that? Are there are current Republican leaders who advocate these things?
Opposing a radical government overhaul of the entire health care system does not make you an extremist, you know. Neither does opposing the spending of almost 1 trillion dollars on liberal pet projects under the guise of an economic ‘stimulus’.
So what are their extreme positions? And can we agree that anything Obama also supports is not right wing extremism? So that would include things like keeping Guantanamo Bay open, warrantless wiretapping, rendition, indefinite detention without trial, opposition to gay marriage, sending more soldiers to Afghanistan, presidential privilege, signing statements, hiring lobbyists, extreme partisanship, refusing to let the public read the text of bills before they are voted on, etc.
---
### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/10 "2009-10-04T09:58:08Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> And can we agree that anything Obama also supports is not right wing extremism?
No. Like Democrats always are, he’s spineless and gives in to Republican demands. Democrats for most purposes don’t really “support” anything; support implies a willingness to take a stand. To actually try to accomplish something.
---
### Author:  [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/11 "2009-10-04T11:23:11Z")
I am a bit frightened that the most extreme faction may try to wreck the Nation, rather than lose.
---
### Author:  [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/12 "2009-10-04T13:14:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> Opposing a radical government overhaul of the entire health care system does not make you an extremist, you know. Neither does opposing the spending of almost 1 trillion dollars on liberal pet projects under the guise of an economic ‘stimulus’.
True, opposing a government-run overhaul of the healthcare system, in and of itself, does not constitute extremism. It’s simply the way many on right insist on opposing said-overhaul that wreaks of extremism - comparing health reform to the final solution, calling Obama a Nazi and/or communist, screaming at their represenatives, crying about how the government needs “to keep their hands off my Medicare.” I could go on and on.
---
### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/13 "2009-10-04T13:33:11Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> What do you see as the most extremist principles of the ‘new’ Republican party?
>
> Seriously, I hear this ‘extremist’ thing thrown around a lot, but I’m having a hard time matching policy to the word.
>
> Do they, like the Gingrich era Republicans, want to abolish the Department of Education? Do they, like the Reagan era Republicans, want to abolish the Interstate Commerce Commission, cut the size of government dramatically, or pass an amendment that forbids the government from running deficits?
>
> When Bush, who was supposedly in bed with the Christian right, was in power for eight years, did he fight to ban abortions? Persecute gays? Did he cut government funding, or throw people off of welfare, or deregulate the economy, or eviscerate labor regulations, or anything like that? Are there are current Republican leaders who advocate these things?
>
> Opposing a radical government overhaul of the entire health care system does not make you an extremist, you know. Neither does opposing the spending of almost 1 trillion dollars on liberal pet projects under the guise of an economic ‘stimulus’.
>
> So what are their extreme positions? And can we agree that anything Obama also supports is not right wing extremism? So that would include things like keeping Guantanamo Bay open, warrantless wiretapping, rendition, indefinite detention without trial, opposition to gay marriage, sending more soldiers to Afghanistan, presidential privilege, signing statements, hiring lobbyists, extreme partisanship, refusing to let the public read the text of bills before they are voted on, etc.
Actually he did deregulate the economy and eviscerate labor protections. That was part of who the repubs are. The gay marriage, anti-abortion and other things are not on their platform. Those are just to gather voters. That is the bait and switch they use to compete with the dems.
---
### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/14 "2009-10-04T14:43:06Z")
I think the rumors of the death of the GOP are greatly exaggerated. I think the Dems have their work cut out for them in hanging onto the House next year, and my guess is the Dems will lose 3-6 seats in the Senate. No fracturing of the Republicans is needed for this to happen.
---
### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/15 "2009-10-04T15:13:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> I think the rumors of the death of the GOP are greatly exaggerated.
Yup, even if the GOP _is_ dead, the marketplace of ideas will soon provide an optimal replacement for it.
-no worries.
---
### Author:  [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/16 "2009-10-04T15:14:47Z")
Democrats and Republicans are Coke and Pepsi. Yes, there are differences between the two and they are in competition. But, ultimately, they will both fight to keep the laws to maintain their status as the only brands. It is in both Coke and Pepsi’s best interest to fight against taxes on sugary drinks.
There is room for a third party, but with the laws jerryrigged the way they are, it can’t get off the ground. There are a lot of people (I’m thinking economically conservative and socially liberal) that aren’t well represented by either party right now. But, they have a better chance by working within the two party system and trying to alter the existing parties than they do of actually forming a third competitive party.
---
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/17 "2009-10-04T15:28:41Z")
If you have 5 or 6 parties represented in Congress, then more than likely none will have a majority and so several will have to forge a coalition in order to govern. I’m not sure how that’s significantly different from what we have now. Ultimately, you need a majority vote in the House and (usually) a super-majority vote in the Senate.
I’m not sure why so many people are hell bent on looking to Washington for all the solutions. We’re just too big a country to come together on large, social issues. Better to try and get much of that done at the state level, or for some of the smaller states to forge regional coalitions if necessary. I live in CA and we’re the size of a medium to large European country, with an economy to match. We struggled (and failed) to pass health care legislation, so I don’t see how it would be easier to do so in DC.
---
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/18 "2009-10-04T16:23:37Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#):
>
> The traditionally conservative party in the U.S., the Republicans, has been so corrupted by the infiltration of ultra-right-wing elements that they are no longer considered by anyone—including the rational members of the GOP—to represent the true version, and vision, of American Conservatism.
In 1952, the Republican Party was split between its Northeastern moderate faction, which supported Eisenhower, and its Midwestern conservative faction, represented by Senator Robert Taft. The essential difference between them was that the Eisenhower faction accepted the New Deal and the Taft faction did not and wanted to roll it back. Eisenhower got the nomination; but the Taft faction was resurgent in the 1964 Goldwater campaign, took over the party completely over the course of the 1970s and eventually triumphed with the election of Reagan in 1980, reducing the liberal/moderate “Rockefeller Republicans” to marginal status, where they remain.
Which of the two do you see as representing “the true version, and vision, of American Conservatism”?
---
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/19 "2009-10-04T16:35:01Z")
> [@Squink](#):
>
> Yup, even if the GOP _is_ dead, the marketplace of ideas will soon provide an optimal replacement for it.
> -no worries.
The question is not whether the GOP is “dead” but whether we are at the beginning of a period when it will be the “moon party” and the Dems the “sun party.” See [this interview with Sam Tanenhaus, author of the new book _The Death of Conservatism:_](http://www.newsweek.com/id/214253)
> [@](#):
>
> **Meacham: So how bad is it, really? Your title doesn’t quite declare conservatism dead.
> Tanenhaus:** Quite bad if you prize a mature, responsible conservatism that honors America’s institutions, both governmental and societal. The first great 20th-century Republican president, Theo- dore Roosevelt, supported a strong central government that emphasized the shared values and ideals of the nation’s millions of citizens. He denounced the harm done by “the trusts”—big corporations. He made it his mission to conserve vast tracts of wilderness and forest. The last successful one, Ronald Reagan, liked to remind people (especially the press) he was a lifelong New Dealer who voted four times for Franklin D. Roosevelt. The consensus forged by Buckley in the 1960s gained strength through two decisive acts: first, Buckley denounced right-wing extremists, such as the members of the John Birch Society, and made sure when he did it to secure the support of conservative Republicans like Reagan, Barry Goldwater, and Sen. John Tower. This pulled the movement toward the center. Second: Buckley saw that the civil disturbances of the late 1960s (in particular urban riots and increasingly militant anti-Vietnam protests) posed a challenge to social harmonies preferred by genuine conservatives and genuine liberals alike. When the Democrat Daniel Patrick Moynihan called on liberals to join with conservatives in upholding “the politics of stability,” Buckley replied that he was ready to help. He placed the values of “civil society” (in Burke’s term) above those of his own movement or the GOP.
>
> Today we see very little evidence of this. In his classic The Future of American Politics (1952), the political journalist Samuel Lubell said that our two-party system in fact consists of periods of alternating one-party rule—there is a majority “sun” party and a minority “moon” party. “It is within the majority party that the issues of any particular period are fought out,” Lubell wrote. Thus, in the 1980s, Republicans grasped (and Democrats did not) that new entrepreneurial energies had been unleashed, and also that the Cold War could be brought to a conclusion through strong foreign policy. This was the Republicans’ “sun” period. The reverse is happening today. The Democrats now dominate our heliocentric system—first on the economic stimulus, which is already proving to be at least a limited success, and now on the issue of health-care reform. These are both entirely Democratic initiatives. The Republicans, so intent on thwarting Obama, have vacated the field, and left it up to the sun party to accept the full burden of legislating us into the future. If the Democrats succeed, Republicans will be tagged as the party that declined even to help repair a broken system and extend fundamental protections—logical extensions of Social Security and Medicare—to some 46 million people who now don’t have them. This could marginalize the right for a generation, if not longer. Rush Limbaugh’s stated hope that Obama will fail seems to have become GOP doctrine. This is the attitude not of conservatives, but of radicals, who deplore the very possibility of a virtuous government.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525/20 "2009-10-04T16:38:40Z")
One of the marvels of the democratic system, as well as its most glaring weakness,is its susceptibility to change: when the people lead, the leaders follow. The Republican Party can be totally changed, turned inside out, in a very, very short amount of time. Observe the Clintonistas, the “third way”, and how they transformed the Democrats into Republican Lite.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/extremists-have-utterly-ruined-the-gop-time-for-a-multi-party-system/512525.md?page=2)