# Exxon is making HOW MUCH?!?!? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 2, 2023, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205 "2023-02-02T14:26:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/21 "2023-02-02T19:49:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Maybe you should try to stop being poor. [![](https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-05/enhanced/webdr07/21/19/anigif_original-grid-image-25630-1400714096-13.gif) ](https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-05/enhanced/webdr07/21/19/anigif_original-grid-image-25630-1400714096-13.gif) ---
**Author:** ![InternetLegend](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/internetlegend/32/13154_2.png) [@InternetLegend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InternetLegend)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/22 "2023-02-02T20:23:16Z")
I don’t suppose the nation is ready to start talking about nationalizing some industries? No? I know it’s not realistic, but it might at least scare them into forgoing obscene profits and be satisfied with their customary giant ones. (Am I the only one who hates the current “shareholders vs. workers and consumers” discourse? Maybe companies need to start taking the possibility of revolution into account when they think about cost/benefit analyses.) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2023, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/23 "2023-02-02T21:15:58Z")
> [@InternetLegend](#): > > I don’t suppose the nation is ready to start talking about nationalizing some industries? No? I know it’s not realistic, but it might at least scare them into forgoing obscene profits and be satisfied with their customary giant ones. I don’t think the solution is turning the country into a hellhole like Venezuela. Nationalizing industries is just bad. That’s not a solution, that’s just giving up. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/24 "2023-02-02T21:38:03Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I don’t think the solution is turning the country into a hellhole like Venezuela. Nationalizing industries is just bad. That’s not a solution, that’s just giving up. The real answer is that “it depends”. There are no universal, ideological answers. The post-war nationalization of the health care industry in the UK was a major success and represented major progress in the social welfare program. The nationalization of health insurance in Canada saw much the same kind of success. One lesson from this is that there are some ventures that private enterprise simply should not ever be involved in. The question of obscenely rich oil companies is more nuanced, and there are no obvious answers. Superficially, one could argue that nationalizing or at least more heavily regulating a giant like Exxon could allow for improved competition, lower consumer prices, and increased public revenue, but the devil in the details here is the old story of unintended consequences. OTOH, the province of Ontario has done well by keeping the retail liquor store network publicly owned, creating a network of attractive stores adhering to high standards of responsible management and a significant revenue stream for the public coffers. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2023, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/25 "2023-02-02T21:42:50Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > One lesson from this is that there are some ventures that private enterprise simply should not ever be involved in. Very, very good point. I think the prison system might be another example; not because publicly-run prisons in the US are so great, but the privately-run ones are so much worse. Your examples of health care being run well under government control points to places like Canada and the UK, which I don’t mind emulating. When you look at states that control oil companies, you’re looking at Saudi Arabia, Russia, Nigeria, Iran, China… I don’t think those are good role models. So yeah, I am very nervous about the idea. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/26 "2023-02-02T21:47:45Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > When you look at states that control oil companies, you’re looking at Saudi Arabia, Russia, Nigeria, Iran, China… Add Norway to that list. > **[Equinor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinor)** > > Equinor ASA (formerly Statoil and StatoilHydro) is a Norwegian state-owned multinational energy company headquartered in Stavanger, Norway. It is primarily a petroleum company operating in 36 countries with additional investments in renewable energy. In the 2020 Forbes Global 2000, Equinor was ranked as the 169th-largest public company in the world. As of 2021,\[update\] the company has 21,126 employees. > The current company was formed by the 2007 merger of Statoil with the oil and gas division of ... ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2023, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/27 "2023-02-02T22:04:25Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Greed is Good. - Gordon Gekko I haven’t seen that movie. Do you recommend it? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2023, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/28 "2023-02-02T22:07:22Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > When you look at states that control oil companies, you’re looking at Saudi Arabia, Russia, Nigeria, Iran, China… I don’t think those are good role models. I think you’re confusing cause and effect - those countries are authoritarian dictatorships/quasidictatorships which do all kinds of horrible things to their own people, but as it happens they don’t need to get permission from anyone to nationalize their oil industries. While it’s comparatively harder for liberal democracies to do the same thing, that doesn’t mean a liberal democracy doing that would lead to authoritarianism or any of the other problems associated with it ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2023, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/29 "2023-02-02T22:09:14Z")
It’s a good movie. The problem with it is that Gekko gives a number of eloquent and compelling speeches justifying his corruption and greed. The audience is _supposed_ to balance that by knowing that corruption and greed are bad, and that these speeches are just petty rationalizations. Unfortunately, there are those who don’t understand that, and are captivated by the new paradigm they feel that they have been given permission to explore. ---
**Author:** ![InternetLegend](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/internetlegend/32/13154_2.png) [@InternetLegend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InternetLegend)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/30 "2023-02-03T04:23:58Z")
I’m not seriously suggesting that a country as dedicated to capitalism and worshipful of billionaires as the US could or even should nationalize major industries (although I still maintain a wistful longing for national health). I just think it might be good to remind the companies who are gouging customers for something as necessary as fuel during the coldest part of the year that it’s a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/31 "2023-02-03T06:47:06Z")
> [@InternetLegend](#): > > I just think it might be good to remind the companies who are gouging customers for something as necessary as fuel during the coldest part of the year that it’s a possibility. I absolutely applaud the motivation behind this, but I doubt they’re going to take such a threat seriously. They probably wouldn’t even if it was a credible threat and probable outcome. These oil companies are powerful, arrogant, and have been around for so long they take their own existence for granted. I think if anything would scare them, it would be a very effective and efficient form of alternative energy. I can’t wait for the day when we have something like that. I fully expect we will in the near future. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/32 "2023-02-03T13:38:11Z")
I don’t understand the outrage over oil companies making record profits. When your product is selling for near or at record high prices, it only makes sense that the profits would follow. You would be a poor businessman if they didn’t. It’s just capitalism. Of course, both communist loving liberals and capitalism loving conservatives will bitch about high gas prices. That’s just human nature, I suppose, but it’s fun to point out that the conservatives hate capitalism in this case. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/33 "2023-02-03T13:45:38Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > I don’t understand the outrage over oil companies making record profits. When your product is selling for near or at record high prices, it only makes sense that the profits would follow. You would be a poor businessman if they didn’t. It’s just capitalism. No, it’s monopolistic tendencies, something that the Messiah of capitalism itself was against. They _set_ the prices, then reap the profits off of them. Gasoline is a fairly inelastic commodity, so the oil companies aren’t doing some amazing feat of marketing by getting people to pay higher prices for it. Do you feel the same way about jacking up the price of insulin? > [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > Of course, both communist loving liberals and capitalism loving conservatives will bitch about high gas prices. That’s just human nature, I suppose, but it’s fun to point out that the conservatives hate capitalism in this case. It’s not hating capitalism to point out its flaws. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/34 "2023-02-03T14:02:39Z")
I’m not convinced that the oil market behaves like a monopoly. Certainly there are players like OPEC that would like that and do manipulate prices, but oil prices to rise and fall regularly so there probably is some competition there. My point isn’t about market pricing though. It is about the outrage that profits are high when prices are high. That’s not a flaw, it’s pretty much expected. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/35 "2023-02-03T14:39:51Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > I’m not convinced that the oil market behaves like a monopoly. Certainly there are players like OPEC that would like that and do manipulate prices, but oil prices to rise and fall regularly so there probably is some competition there. If it was a free market, then you or I could start our own oil company and share in those profits. Adam Smith’s theories of capitalism required there to be the ability for new players to enter the market, who would be encouraged to enter the market by the high profits. The new players would then be competition that would lower profits. There is a reason that small businesses with low barriers to entry really only afford the owner a comfortable lifestyle. Any more profit means that others will be attracted to enter and lower it. Having higher profits means anti-competitive practices and market manipulations. > [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > My point isn’t about market pricing though. It is about the outrage that profits are high when prices are high. That’s not a flaw, it’s pretty much expected. But that’s just you missing the point then. Unless you are claiming that Exxon has _no_ power over price and is entirely at the whims of the market outside their control and that other players are freely able to enter the market to take advantage of those prices, then the record profits of Exxon et al are an example of a _failure_ of capitalism, not a success. As you say, oil prices rise and fall regularly. In a proper free market, that would mean that the record profits are balanced by losses. But they make profit whether oil prices are rising or falling. Profits for Exxon are nearly _always_ high, that they are even higher when people are paying more at the pump is what people find to be problematic. And I don’t know if pointing out flaws in a system and how those flaws harm ordinary consumers is properly described as “outrage”. It seems often to serve to dismiss rational concerns as emotional reaction. IME, people who use that phrasing are less looking for an exchange of ideas, and more looking to put down anyone who disagrees with them. Even those who smugly dismiss concerns under a “I got mine” mentality that they are invested in these companies are likely seeing a greater increase in the cost of fueling their vehicle than the part of that profit that trickles down to bump up their stock portfolio. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/36 "2023-02-03T14:43:12Z")
You’re 100% correct. Some people hate the idea of a company making a profit. Especially if it’s a _big_ profit. They somehow think _they_ are a victim of it, or that the owners are profiting “unfairly.” It’s obvious the people who have this mindset have never run a business. [Here is a 2022 article](https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2022/04/24/if-oil-companies-control-prices-why-do-they-ever-lose-money/?sh=3ae631e0cf9d) that makes some good points on the subject: > Consider that in the past 10 years, major oil and gas companies suffered tremendous losses in 2014, 2015, and 2020. In fact, in 2020 the five integrated supermajors (i.e., “Big Oil”) – ExxonMobil, BP, Shell, Chevron, and Total – lost $76 billion. Oil prices plunged into negative territory in 2020. Were the oil companies feeling especially generous then? > > Apple, on the other, hasn’t lost money once in the past decade. Are their executives being called to Congress to explain why an iPhone costs $800 when they are reaping huge profits? No, of course not. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/37 "2023-02-03T14:52:22Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Some people hate the idea of a company making a profit. Especially if it’s a _big_ profit. They somehow think _they_ are a victim of it, or that the owners are profiting “unfairly.” It’s obvious the people who have this mindset have never run a business. I don’t know if personalizing those criticizing the business practices in such a manner is useful, as it is mostly something that exists in your imagination. What people hate is when they can’t make ends meet, while one of the largest drivers of their increased costs is making record profits. What people criticize is when companies profit at the expense of the public. Now, while I would agree that people who have the mindset as you described would probably have never run a business, I would say that you are painting with a massive brush to assume that _anyone_ who disagrees with you is of that mindset, and that there are _very_ few who match your description. Your little snippet is a pretty stupid comparison. People _need_ gas to get to work, to take their kids to school, to go to the store. People don’t _need_ an $800 iPhone. There are cheaper alternatives to Iphones. I picked up a pretty nice smartphone for a bit over $100. It was used and a few years old, but serves my purposes just fine. There are no cheaper alternatives to gas. You pay what it says on the sign. Whoever wrote that piece of drek, you should be wary of any other persuasions they try to throw at you. The were extremely misleading in this example, they will probably deliberately mislead you in others. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/38 "2023-02-03T15:05:37Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > What people hate is when they can’t make ends meet, while one of the largest drivers of their increased costs is making record profits. So you’re saying these people _could_ make ends meet in 2014, 2015, and 2020 when the oil companies were losing money, and they _can’t_ make ends meet in 2023 when the oil companies are making a profit? You argument doesn’t hold water. An Econ 101 class would serve you well. A company making a profit is a _good_ thing, not a bad thing (assuming no laws were broken, obviously). Over the long term, it’s impossible for a company to make large profits year after year and year. In some years, the profits will be low. In some years, they will lose money. The “hatred for profits” is a juvenile mentality that most people grow out of before they become adults. I am surprised so many Dopers are still afflicted by it. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/39 "2023-02-03T15:16:07Z")
The minute I stop being bombarded by “it’s the Democrat’s fault that gas prices went up- vote Republican if you hate high gas prices!” rhetoric is the minute I become interested in having a conversation about the appropriateness of varying degrees of profitability in the energy sector. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2023, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205/40 "2023-02-03T16:42:17Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > So you’re saying these people _could_ make ends meet in 2014, 2015, and 2020 when the oil companies were losing money Obviously in 2020, for example, people were using significantly less gasoline because the pandemic conditions significantly restricted travel. So yes, the money saved by using less gasoline helped many people make ends meet, or at least helped offset pandemic-related income losses. And that drastically slashed demand for oil is what made the oil companies lose money in 2020. As compared to the 2015-2016 losses, caused by excess supply due to large increases in production post-2008. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exxon-is-making-how-much/979205.md?page=3)