# eyeshadow-wearing Taliban men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 10, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052 "2005-01-10T16:05:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/21 "2005-01-12T14:50:36Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > This would all be really hot, if it weren’t for the “crazed fundamentalist killers” part. I’m willing to go investigate homosexual tendencies among Arab men if the SDMB crowd will put together donations for the plane flight. I’m youthful and clean-shaven. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/22 "2005-01-12T15:04:19Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > This would all be really hot, if it weren’t for the “crazed fundamentalist killers” part. Yup. Those Americans are dangerous!!! 😃 … ooohhhhh, the _other_ “crazed fundamentalist killers”. . . /I just had to get that one out of the way before someone else had the fun of saying it. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/23 "2005-01-12T16:34:07Z")
Ohhhhh, you WEREN’T only talking about the Taliban. Well then. Could someone tell me the Pashtun for “I bring you goats, soap, and Hello Kitty. Which way to teh butts3xx0rz?” ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/24 "2005-01-12T17:50:12Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > I wasn’t talking about that book, or anything the author has ever written. And what does “You need to bone up on The Enemy, I’m afraid” mean??? I was talking about Northern Alliance soldiers. Since when are they our enemy? I didn’t say dick about Taliban. It’s from the OP. All of it. Heck, _Taliban_ is in the thread title! Are you saying you didn’t read the OP, yet still posted an “answer,” a hijack, even? :eek: It is a critical error, culturally, geopolitically and strategically, to lump together the “Northern Alliance” and the Taliban. It is the same brand of illogic as drawing a comparison between _all_ Canadians and _some_ Ohio Pentecostals. You do know there’s a big difference between the two groups, don’t you? > [@](#): > > \*Now… if there’s something particular you disagree with, if you think I’ve said something inaccurate, then point it out and show some facts to back it up. > > What exactly caused your dissaproval???\* This is neither the time nor the place to dig up an apocryphal story about lurid, youthful buggery, quasi-erotic genito-prostatic manipulation, male concubines and anime in adhesive foil. Unless you can provide a cite for the items you allege, I will be forced to point and laugh at you. In addition, I plan to mock you in falsetto. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/25 "2005-01-12T21:03:37Z")
Well, FWIW, the Taliban wore eye makeup in the movie _Osama_, which was supposed to be pretty accurate (and was even filmed in post-Taliban Afghanistan if I’m not mistaken.) > [@Patty O'Furniture](#): > > [this scene from Indiana Jones](http://www.moserbrothers.com/archives/indyfix2.jpg). Did anyone else die laughing when they saw this? > [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Which way to teh butts3xx0rz? I have no idea why this is so funny to me, but I’m just now catching my breath from when SolGrundy said “i suxx0r teh d00dz” like three weeks ago. Now this. Hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/26 "2005-01-12T21:37:27Z")
\*\* [Moderator Mode] \*\* > [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > your post was idiotic and pointless. > … > I don’t need some flatulant cyberdick to tell me where to bone up. And your comments were out of line in _this_ Forum. Do not repeat this sort of personal attack in **GQ**. However, **El Cid Viscoso** , I will also note that I consider your initial contribution to be more than a bit provocative and just _barely_ inside the line. Having provided no evidence that the people of Southern and Northern Afghanistan have radically different cultures (as opposed to being identifiable groups within the same culture), your blanket dismissal of **Bear\_Nenno** ’s post does not attain the level of information that we expect in **GQ** , and couching that dismissal in scatalogical terms is not conducive to calm or rational discussion. I interpret your opening to be facetious, but your followup is suggestive of a deliberate insult. I will probably interpret further similar expressions to be on the wrong side of the line. \*\* [/Moderator Mode] \*\* ---
**Author:** ![KING](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a9adbd/32.png) [@KING](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KING)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/27 "2005-01-12T21:55:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Why? Well, there might be a cosmetic appeal, true, but another reason, and probably the true origin of the practice, is similar to why US football player smear black under their eyes: it helps reduce glare. In the John Simpson book “News from No-Man’s Land” he reports seeing Taliban fighters in eyeshadow, painted nails and gold high-heels. I can’t imagine those glamorous shoes are for health reasons. Also, his blonde cameraman was very appealing to the homo element of the Northern Alliance, getting felt up and pinched repeatedly. Gayness seems to be a pan-Afganistan phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/28 "2005-01-12T21:59:02Z")
**El Cid** , I really have no idea what your problem is. The VERY FIRST thing I said was _ **On a related note…** _ I read the OP, I knew who and what he was asking about. I can’t answer his question because none of this pictures of dead Taliban that I ever saw included things like eye shadow. This fact neither proves nor disproves anything, so I am no help to him there. HOWEVER, I do find relevant and “related” to this thread the conduct and customs of Northern Alliance and Afghan National Army soldiers. If you disagree that it’s relevant and/or related, why don’t you just say so without all that nonsense about farting and laughing and singing and shit. I don’t get it. Oh, and a decent explanation for your disagreement wouldn’t hurt either… ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/29 "2005-01-13T03:43:52Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > If you disagree that it’s relevant and/or related… Oh, I do and I did. [The Taliban, the subject of this thread, is Pashtun](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun), an ancient ethnic group that has long been considered indigenous to Afghanistan. The Pashtun make up roughly 40% of Afghanistan’s population. The “Northern Alliance” openly persecuted the traditionalist Pashtuns and [excluded them from its forces](http://www.terrorismanswers.org/afghanistan/alliance.html). You’ll note that in my first post, I actually spent a bit of time talking about Ahmed Shah Massoud. Prior to September 9, 2001, Massoud was the commander of the “Northern Alliance.” He was a Tajik, on the ropes, and for months had been holed up in his citadel just south of the border of Tajikistan. Other than the Taliban, Massoud’s main obstacle was General Dostum, an Uzbek, with whom he was locked in a bitter power struggle. On September 9, 2001, Massoud was assassinated in that same fortified camp in the Panjshir valley by a suicide bomber posing as a western cameraman. Once Massoud was out of the way, in the space of a few months, the “Northern Alliance” ballooned from 10,000\* men to more than [30,000](http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/11/24/gen.war.against.terror/). The ranks were filled with Tajiks\*\*, Uzbeks\*\*\* (again, no Pashtuns) and various and sundry other fighters, all hired, trained and armed with materiel and monetary support from Tajikistan, Iran, India and Russia. Massoud is a central figure in this whole story; that you aren’t aware of his significance makes me wonder how much background your unit was given on the “Northern Alliance.” Therefore, barring a reliable cite, I am incapable of believing your lascivious account about the behaviors or sexual preferences of its soldiers. I’m not trying to be mean. I’m just trying to elicit the facts. * * * - “Having Second Thoughts?” _The Economist_, September 27, 2001. _‘In any case, the alliance has only around 10,000 soldiers, compared with the Taliban’s 40,000.’_ \*\* Ethnic Tajik: Mainly Sunni Turks. \*\*\* Ethnic Uzbek: Persian, mainly of Iranian descent. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/30 "2005-01-13T04:11:40Z")
> [@El Cid Viscoso](#): > > . The Taliban, the subject of this thread, is Pashtun I thought they were a religious and hence political organization. The “Sons of Joseph”? Surely not. ---
**Author:** ![drhess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/94ad74/32.png) [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/31 "2005-01-13T14:14:58Z")
Thanks to Tom (and Deb?) for their moderation. Bear and El C, please go elsewhere, neither of you is helping much (although Bear’s first post was entirely appropriate even IF it assumed, or lacked, a connection between some groups and others in the country, the Taliban, or whatever…). Bye bye. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/32 "2005-01-13T15:22:40Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I thought they were a religious and hence political organization. They are, but to a large extent they are also a de facto ethnic organization. The Taliban was nurtured in, drew the great bulk of their recruits from and to a large extent incorporated the cultural values of Pashtun areas into their theology ( i.e. _Pushtunwali_ - a tribal moral/legal code governing revolving around personal honor ). Which isn’t to say they had universal support among the Pashtuns - far from it ( just as an example both the Karzai family and many of the Taliban’s leadership are from the same tribe - the Durrani, which also supplied the Afghan royal family ). Nor that they didn’t have non-Pashtun members. They almost certainly accumulated some as various militiamen defected to them during their heyday ( though the largest defections were again from a Pashtun source - the CIA’s favorite, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, who drew his support mainly from the Ghilzai tribe ). But the great bulk of their support was ( and is ) Pashtun in origin. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Crandolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Crandolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crandolph)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/33 "2005-01-14T04:27:12Z")
A few things: Tajiks aren’t Turks. They speak a Turkic language. English is a Germanic language, but that doesn’t make its speakers German. Other than people who moved there, there are no Arabs in Afghanistan. All Middle Easterners aren’t Arabs. Large parts of the Mideast and South Asia have a quite different approach to sexuality than we do; but some homosexual activity doesn’t necessarily mean that people conceive of themselves as “gay” as we would understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/34 "2005-01-14T04:47:14Z")
**Bear\_Nenno:** Thanks. Now I’m imagining an Afghani version of _Queer Eye For the Straight Guy._ “Honey, get those Sailor Jupitor stickers off your rifle. You are _so_ a Tuxedo Mask guy” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/35 "2005-01-14T22:52:38Z")
> [@Crandolph](#): > > A few things: > > Tajiks aren’t Turks. They speak a Turkic language. English is a Germanic language, but that doesn’t make its speakers German. Actually, no, they mostly speak Dari. Which is essentially just a dialect of Farsi ( Persian - an Indo-Iranian language, quite unrelated to any version of Turkic ). > [@](#): > > Other than people who moved there, there are no Arabs in Afghanistan. All Middle Easterners aren’t Arabs. Well, actually there are some old “indigenous” populations of Arabs in Afghanistan. Though enough oddly many no longer speak Arabic ( they still self-identify as Arabs however ). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/36 "2005-01-14T22:53:56Z")
“enough oddly”? sheesh :wally 🙂 - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/37 "2005-04-22T08:39:30Z")
There’s been a bit of confusion in this thread about eye makeup and ethnic groups. Mostly guys posting here. ( **matt** , you’re cool.) [Eyeshadow](http://www.worth1000.com/entries/3500/3653_w.jpg) is color that’s brushed on the upper eyelid and the space under the eyebrow. Traditional Muslims, not just Afghans but all over the Middle East, wear kohl, which is different. Kohl is very, very fine powder of antimony trisulfide used as [black eyeliner](http://www.kevynaucoin.com/lessons/?dramaticeyes). **Rodd Hill** , with his alarmist link about kohl, and **Broomstick** (a woman) are the only ones so far in this thread who have grasped that Afghans wear kohl. There’s a difference: Eyeliner goes around the rims of the eyelids. Kohl has one difference from modern eyeliner: the latter goes alongside the eyelid rims, but not directly on the rims. Kohl is applied with a little stick right on top of the edge of the eyelid rims, by closing your eyelids on the powdered stick and swiping it from the inner to the outer corner of the eye. The powder is exceedingly fine and sticks there for hours and hours. Wearing kohl is considered a _sunnah_ (a hallowed practice of the Prophet to be imitated). In traditional Islamic eye medicine it’s thought to be good medicine to prevent eye disease. In fact, the Arabic word for ophthamologist is _kahhâl_, meaning ‘kohl seller’. It’s helpful in desert climates for the reasons **Broomstick** explained. The warnings about danger from cheap imitations of kohl are well taken. If you use kohl, you need to be informed about the quality of the product. Hashmi Surma from Pakistan is one brand that has been analyzed and found lead-free. Only buy reputable name brands like Hashmi Surma. (_Surma_ is the Persian word for kohl, so in Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, India, and Pakistan they call it “surma.” In Turkey they call it _sürme_ and in Iran _sormeh_, because of vowel shifts.) At modern cosmetics counters they sell something called a “kohl pencil” but this is just an eyeliner pencil meant to imitate the look of kohl, not the same thing as real kohl powder. There’s no substitute for the real thing, because the powder is so fine you can get it in your eyes and it doesn’t cause any irritation. Kohl’s fineness gave its name to alcohol because in medieval alchemy “alcohol” meant the most refined form of anything, so “alcohol of wine” was refined (distilled) wine. So when I read the thread title, I wondered if someone had confused kohl with eyeshadow. But then I read about the gold high heels and thought wow. If these blokes are so femme they import gold high heels, I wouldn’t put it past them to also import eyeshadow. In candy colors. With _glitter_. One thing strict Muslims won’t do is nail polish, because it coats the nails, preventing water from getting there when they make ablution before prayer, and the rules say the water has to reach everywhere on the hands. So they dye the nails with henna instead. A sidenote about kajal, something else that gets confused with kohl. Kajal is the Hindi name for a preparation of lampblack mixed with oil. It’s smeared around the eyes to make a heavy eyeliner look. It’s mostly seen on little kids in India and Pakistan to protect them from the evil eye, but women use it as makeup too. Tajiks are Iranians. The Tajik and Dari languages are essentially exactly the same language as Persian, but pronounced with a different accent from that used in Iran. Uzbeks are Turks. The Uzbek language has been heavily influenced by Tajik, but is still very much of the Turkic language family. Turkic languages are Altaic, related to Mongolian and Manchu, while Iranian languages are Indo-European, related to English, French, Hindi, etc. The native population of Uzbekistan is probably mostly descended from ancient Tajik ethnic stock, mixed with several waves of Turkic tribes over the centuries and a dash of Mongol. Tajiks are the descendants of the indigenous inhabitants of Central Asia. They were called Sogdians in ancient times and Sarts in the Middle Ages. One of the few areas in the world where the Indo-Europeans seem to be indigenous and not invaders. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/38 "2005-04-22T12:30:48Z")
My first thought upon reading this was as a glasre reducer, but I also recall in Marco Polo’s travels where he writes about the use of _tutty_ as an eye salve. See here: [http://www.iza.com/zwo\_org/Publications/Discovering/0202.htm](http://www.iza.com/zwo_org/Publications/Discovering/0202.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/39 "2005-04-22T14:37:39Z")
I just have to say, **Johanna** , your post is fantastic. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052/40 "2005-04-22T17:55:09Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Uzbeks are Turks. The Uzbek language has been heavily influenced by Tajik, but is still very much of the Turkic language family. Turkic languages are Altaic, related to Mongolian and Manchu, while Iranian languages are Indo-European, related to English, French, Hindi, etc. Hey, hey, hey, let’s not go too far here. It’s called the “Altaic Hypothesis” for a reason, you know. It’s not really proven. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/eyeshadow-wearing-taliban-men/284052.md?page=3)