# F 117 loss **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 26, 2002, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823 "2002-11-26T03:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/1 "2002-11-26T03:43:17Z")
What downed the F 117 in the attack on Yugoslavia, 1999? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/2 "2002-11-26T03:47:13Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s now official - Americans lost their pride and joy: at least one of USAF’s stealthiest aircraft, the F-117A Night Hawk, is lost to Yugoslav anti-aircraft defenses. Russian Minister of Defence Igor Sergeyev announced that the stealthiest of the world’s aircraft was brough down by two SA-6 surface-to-air missiles. Yugoslav Air Force officials said that the F-117 was also hit by one AAM launched from a MiG fighter aircraft. [http://www.aeronautics.ru/f117down.htm](http://www.aeronautics.ru/f117down.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Tony\_Barber\_s\_Underwear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/58f4c7/32.png) [@Tony\_Barber\_s\_Underwear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tony_Barber_s_Underwear)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/3 "2002-11-26T05:50:44Z")
How do you pronounce F-117? I have only ever seen it written. Is it “F one-seventeen” or “F eleven-seven” or “F one hundred and seventeen”? I know the F-111 is pronounced “F one-eleven”. - Bubba. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/4 "2002-11-26T05:59:18Z")
Ef-one-seventeen. What you must understand about the F-117 is, although it can avoid detection by radar, its NOT invisible to the naked eye. It also is a sub-sonic fighter…many MiGs and the like can outrun one…and due to its un-aerodynamic faceted shape, its probably not turn-on-a-dime maneuverable, either. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/5 "2002-11-26T15:42:02Z")
It should also be mentioned that the F-117 (and all stealth aircraft) are designed to REDUCE their radar and heat signatures. They are not completely invisible, just difficult to detect and track. Also, despite being called a “fighter” it is really more of a light ground attack aircraft. It’s not the world’s greatest dog fighter by any stretch of the imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/6 "2002-11-26T16:17:00Z")
I thought this was pretty well-known at the time, no cover-up. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/7 "2002-11-26T16:21:09Z")
So did they get lucky? Was there a maintenance fault? Did they eyeball it? Why weren’t the Iraquis sucessful? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/8 "2002-11-26T17:18:40Z")
Partially luck, partially the air commanders foolishly ordering the same attack from the same direction and altitude every day. The Serbs were waiting. Yes, the Black Jet, or Roach, is detectable by radar; it’s just harder. It can be seen and can most certainly be heard (go to an airshow sometime), and it’s relatively slow and unmaneuvrable too. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/9 "2002-11-26T17:18:59Z")
The Iraqis _were_ successful in shooting down a few U.S. planes back in in the first (and hopefully only) Gulf War. You didn’t hear much about it because the miltary doesn’t like to talk about its combat losses, and for the most part the media plays along. If you looked at non-American news sources back in 1999 (especially non-US aerospace news sources), you could find quite a lot about NATO losses in Yugoslavia. ---
**Author:** ![XPav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/b77776/32.png) [@XPav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XPav)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/10 "2002-11-26T21:51:44Z")
Various people not satisfied with the idea that a US stealth aircraft could be shot down by the Serbs have come up with the theory that the Chinese helped. In retaliation, the US bombed the Chinese embassy where they had the top sekrit equipment. After all, the USAF couldn’t make two mistakes, could they? NATO losses in Yugoslavia are known. 2 combat losses (an F-117 and an F-16), 13 aircraft damaged or destroyed due to accident. Various sources claim large numbers of NATO aircraft shot down, but its amusing that while the F-117 and F-16 shootdown resulted in pictures and news obviously confirming its loss, no similar proof has been shown regarding the 100+ aircraft supposedly down. Reading these various sites soon makes you realize that there’s nothing more in these that the standard massive over-claiming of enemy aircraft shot down that has been with us since WW1. A common retort on rec.aviation.military to those that claimed large numbers of shootdowns was… “PICTURES!”. As proof, a picture of a SAM vehicle with 3 aircraft silhouettes was posted. US losses in Desert Storm are known and easy to find on the web. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDragonFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@FlyingDragonFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDragonFan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/11 "2002-11-26T22:40:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > Yes, the Black Jet, or Roach, is detectable by radar; it’s just harder. It can be seen and can most certainly be heard (go to an airshow sometime), and it’s relatively slow and unmaneuvrable too. So then what exactly is it good for? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/12 "2002-11-26T23:01:05Z")
> [@](#): > > So then what exactly is it good for? FDF, from your other posts, you obviously already know. But, I’ll state it for others. Reducing the radar profile causes confusion in recognition. Is it a light plane? A weather balloon blown by high winds? A large bird carrying part of a chain link fence? Electronic countermeasures are based on the same idea. If you can fool the programming or the human user, even for just seconds, your mission success probability goes waay up. Seconds can count. Funny thing I heard once: I was at a football game near an airfield. A B-2 flew over the stadium. In front of me was the following conversation: “What the hell is that?” “A B-2.” “Huh?” “The Stealth Bomber.” “Well, it’s not working! I can see it clear as day!” Berr came foaming out my nose. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/13 "2002-11-26T23:03:39Z")
Berr = Beer Coors to be specific ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/14 "2002-11-26T23:04:54Z")
Coors? I thought you said beer. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/15 "2002-11-26T23:10:36Z")
I’ll meet you in the Pit, by gawd! j/k It’s funny the misconceptions that some people can make. I guess he saw _Predator_ one too many times. Camophlage (sp?) is an interesting art/science. What was the stealthiest plane before F-117 and B-2? ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDragonFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c89c15/32.png) [@FlyingDragonFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDragonFan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/16 "2002-11-26T23:32:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > FDF, from your other posts, you obviously already know. I think you may have me confused with somebody else? 😕 > [@](#): > > If you can fool the programming or the human user, even for just seconds, your mission success probability goes waay up. Seconds can count. This I can understand, but my question still stands (not to be taken as sarcasm). What use is there for a slow, poorly maneuvering light aircraft? What are the F-117’s intended uses? It doesn’t seem like something I’d choose to be the pilot of, knowing that a couple of yokels with some surface-to-air missles, or a MiG, pose a serious threat. Or was that an unusual occurence? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/17 "2002-11-26T23:48:43Z")
Someone who really knows will post the correct answer, but I will try to explain my take on this. First strike. Not nuclear. But the first attack on the enemy, even if expected, works best as at least somewhat of a surprise. The F-117 provides that ability. In ongoing struggles. Air defenses are actively searching for targets. Being able to confuse those defenses causes an advantage. Heat seeking devices are confused by the lowered exhaust temps. Radar aimed thingies by the reduced radar profile. F-117 may not be supersonic, but it’s still faster than a prop plane. Supersonic stealth fighter/attack planes are currently being developed. Isn’t the joint strike plane a stealth design? So, anyways, the F-117 is useful, especially when combined with other other planes like converted F-111’s being used for electronic countermeasures and the supersonic, terrain hugging capabilities of some other planes. Just one tool in a massive aresenal. But nothing is attack proof. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/18 "2002-11-26T23:54:09Z")
Oh yeah, forgot to say… First stirkes usually are against defences and communications and early warning sites. So sending a stealth in first makes sense. They would have a higher success probability. ---
**Author:** ![XPav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/b77776/32.png) [@XPav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XPav)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/19 "2002-11-27T00:20:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > \*\*F-117 may not be supersonic, but it’s still faster than a prop plane. Supersonic stealth fighter/attack planes are currently being developed. Isn’t the joint strike plane a stealth design? > > But nothing is attack proof. \*\* You’re correct in your post. Now, most all aircraft and ships designed today are designed to have stealth features. The latest US warship, the Burke-class DDGs are designed to be less observable on radar. Same with the F-18E/F Super Hornet and the French Rafale. Just like some planes are louder than others, some planes will be stealthier than others, with aicraft like the F-117 and B-2 sacrificing/costring a lotto be as stealthy as possible. ---
**Author:** ![XPav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/b77776/32.png) [@XPav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XPav)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823/20 "2002-11-27T00:21:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > \*\*F-117 may not be supersonic, but it’s still faster than a prop plane. Supersonic stealth fighter/attack planes are currently being developed. Isn’t the joint strike plane a stealth design? > > But nothing is attack proof. \*\* You’re correct in your post. Now, most all aircraft and ships designed today are designed to have stealth features. The latest US warship, the Burke-class DDGs are designed to be less observable on radar. Same with the F-18E/F Super Hornet and the French Rafale. Just like some planes are louder than others, some planes will be stealthier than others, with aircraft like the F-117 and B-2 sacrificing/costring a lotto be as stealthy as possible. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-117-loss/138823.md?page=2)