# F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18..which one should I have in a dogfight? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 23, 2003, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663 "2003-04-23T19:04:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Winsling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Winsling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winsling)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/21 "2003-04-24T03:17:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Billdo \* > **While you’re all at it, could someone explain to me in plain language the different purposes and roles of these different fighters** So, this has a lot more to do with how procurement works than some master plan on the part of the armed force. The F-15 was designed as _the_ fighter, but as the process dragged on it became more expensive than anticipated, forcing a smaller order, which drove costs up further. So, the Air Force wanted a lighter, cheaper airplane to “flesh out” the fleet. Enter the F-16. I’m murkier on the F-14/F-18 relationship, but I believe it’s a similar story, with the F-18 being the lighter, cheaper one. The F-18 is also a dual-role aircraft, capable of filling a ground attack role better than the F-14, which makes it beloved of the marines. All of these planes have many different versions; for example, while the F-15 was designed solely as an air-to-air fighter, there’s a variant that specializes in ground attack. And I get a chance to use one of my favorite tidbits. An F-15 can carry 8 tons of bombs. A B-29 Superfortress (WW II era _heavy bomber_) could carry 10. Today, the Air Force is buying a complex, capable aircraft in the F-22, which is becoming much more expensive than anticipated, leading to smaller order which drives costs up further. The remainder is left as an excercise for the reader. Online, I’ve only got a cite that’s a geocities page, which is garbage as a reference, but is [here](http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9797/airforcereq.html) anyways. Hal ---
**Author:** ![Alien2022](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19adc/32.png) [@Alien2022](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien2022)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/22 "2003-04-24T03:27:29Z")
F-22 anyday, not only do you have supercruise, and excellent maneuverability, but you have stealth. Cant really shoot, when you dont know where they are you know… lol Gun fights are stupid anyways… Anyone who gets into a gun fight with a jet nowadays… _Sigh_ obviously doesnt know how to use their plane right… Because either you, or the other pilot will be dead by missiles. F-14’s are good, but not THAT good anymore. F-15E’s are the latest and greatest Air Superiority fighters… Still… No match for the new F-22. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/23 "2003-04-24T04:14:50Z")
Years ago, I read a profile in a military magazine about the top Air Force wing. These were the guys who flew in mock dogfights against every other fighter wing in the Air Force. I don’t remember which wing it was, but they were a **reserve** unit from the Dakotas who did it while flying F-4s! :eek: That’s right, _reservists_, flying a Vietnam era plane were able to take out the best modern aircraft in the USAF! ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/24 "2003-04-24T04:41:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*Years ago, I read a profile in a military magazine about the top Air Force wing. These were the guys who flew in mock dogfights against every other fighter wing in the Air Force. I don’t remember which wing it was, but they were a **reserve** unit from the Dakotas who did it while flying F-4s! :eek: That’s right, _reservists_, flying a Vietnam era plane were able to take out the best modern aircraft in the USAF! \*\* Yep. The 119 Fighter Wing, North Dakota Air National Guard,(The Happy Hooligans) based in Fargo. IIRC, they also won the contest several years later while flying the F-16. Off topic a little bit, they were also the first planes to fly air cover over Washington, D.C. on [September 11.](http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0416/p01s04-usmi.html) > [@](#): > > The scramble horn wailed, and the green launch light flashed on. Capt. Craig Borgstrom, operations officer for a detachment of the North DakotaAir National Guard at Langley,raced to the hangar with two on-duty pilots. It was 9:24, Sept. 11: The chaos had just begun ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/25 "2003-04-24T05:12:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Gun fights are stupid anyways… Anyone who gets into a gun fight with a jet nowadays… _Sigh_ obviously doesnt know how to use their plane right… Because either you, or the other pilot will be dead by missiles. You know, that’s what McDonnell-Douglass said about the original F-4, and that’s why it didn’t have a gun on it. They had to fix that problem. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/26 "2003-04-24T05:17:06Z")
As much as we romantisize guns in a fighter plane realize that for US planes the AIM-9 missle has more kills than guns and all other missles combined. It’s a close in weapon so requires good dogfighting skills while being very superior to guns. ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/27 "2003-04-24T05:29:48Z")
Well, if _Ace Combat 4_ is any indication, put me in an F-15(ACTIVE) and i’ll ownz0r the skies from here to Baghdad and back. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/28 "2003-04-24T07:28:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bernse \* > \*\*Normally, I’d say an F15 without question. But, since you wanted guns only, you’re in close. I’d say the F16 would be my first choice. _Definetly_ not the Tomcat for guns dogfight. > > Where’s the Mig29 in this group? As a dogfighter, I’d say somewhere around the F18. \*\* The Tomcat is actually supposed to be a remarkably agile aircraft - the variable geometry wings improve it’s ability to sustain high angles of attack. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/29 "2003-04-24T07:30:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*F/A-18E Super Hornet, without a doubt. Assuming, of course, equal pilot quality, enviromental conditions, etc. > > The F/A-18E is not simply a improved Hornet, it is a all-new aircraft, cleverly called ‘Super Hornet’ to sneak development funds through a Congress that didn’t want to approve a F-14 replacement for the Navy. (The F-14 is at the end of its usefull life.) > \*\* What do you mean by that? Did they actually design a new body from scratch? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/30 "2003-04-24T07:31:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jake4 \* > \*\*I might make this a new thread, but here goes anyway. > > How much do helicopter pilots practice dogfighting? > > And since it’s helicopters, not planes, do they call it catfighting? 🙂 \*\* I don’t think they practice ‘dogfighting’ as such. Modern attack helicopters are armed with stingers, as well as cannons, generally. With helicopters, the first one to spot the other guy and fires first usually wins. There’s not really a romantic ‘dog fight’ aspect to it. At least that’s my impression. ---
**Author:** ![Flying\_Monk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/48db29/32.png) [@Flying\_Monk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flying_Monk)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/31 "2003-04-24T11:00:06Z")
How does the F-22 compare with the SU-37? I haven’t heard of anyone taking up the “any time, any place” challenge… ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/32 "2003-04-24T11:33:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\*What do you mean by that? Did they actually design a new body from scratch? \*\* Yep. 33% greater fuel capacity over the F/A-18C/D, longer LERX’s, all sorts of room for more avionics (Hence, the Navy is going to be modifying a few into a ‘F/A-18G Wild Weasel’ configuration. New, larger, airframe, that happens to look A LOT like the Hornet. Granted, I am only as accurate as Discovery Wings!, so… ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/33 "2003-04-24T11:45:26Z")
How about the JSF? I’ve not heard if the Marine version can use the ducted thrust fan in flight… Could beat the Harrier. ---
**Author:** ![Kilt-wearin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kilt-wearin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilt-wearin_man)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/34 "2003-04-24T20:30:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alien2022 \* > \*\*F-22 anyday, not only do you have supercruise, and excellent maneuverability, but you have stealth. Cant really shoot, when you dont know where they are you know… lol > > ----(snip)------ > > F-15E’s are the latest and greatest Air Superiority fighters… Still… No match for the new F-22. \*\* The F-22 is equipped with the M-61 20mm gatling gun, just like the F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-18. [Cite](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-22.htm) The F-15E is not an air-superiority fighter, it is a fighter/bomber.[Here’s an F-15E - odd load-out for an air superiority fighter…](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f15_04-load.jpg) . The F-15E is heavier and has added drag from its conformal fuel tanks than other F-15 versions. The “latest and greatest” F-15 variant that is an air-superiority fighter is the F-15C. [Cite.](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm) ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/35 "2003-04-24T22:06:53Z")
Yeah, saying you want an F-15E in a dogfight is like saying you want an F-117 in a dogfight. It wouldn’t do you any good, especially the F-117. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/36 "2003-04-24T22:10:29Z")
It’s not really like that at all. The f-117 has no ability to take on fighters, while the F15 is a dual purpose aircraft that’s still very capable of taking on other fighters. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/37 "2003-04-24T22:18:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\*It’s not really like that at all. The f-117 has no ability to take on fighters, while the F15 is a dual purpose aircraft that’s still very capable of taking on other fighters. \*\* Fair enough and you’re quite right. I didn’t mean to understate the F-15 capabilities. I was thinking more along the lines of the aforementioned F-15E. ---
**Author:** ![aeropl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f05b48/32.png) [@aeropl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aeropl)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/38 "2003-04-24T23:30:50Z")
Nobody has mentioned that the F-22 has thrust vectoring, making it more maneuverable than any current fighter. I’d pick that, especially for the slower dogfights using guns. Here’s a quote, [from here](http://www.af.mil/news/Aug2002/82702177.shtml): “The most obvious (difference from other jets) is the slow speed, high angle of attack region where the F-22 is still completely controllable while an F-16 (Fighting Falcon) or F-15 (Eagle) is completely uncontrollable” ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/39 "2003-04-25T00:04:49Z")
Thrust vectoring. I thought the Harrier could do that to some degree thanks to its STOL (VTOL?) capabilites. Or is that not as a manuverability thing and just take-off and landing. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663/40 "2003-04-25T00:55:13Z")
Damn! **aeropl** beat me to it! From what I’ve seen on Discovery Wings and similar channels, the thrust vectoring of the F-22 is supposed to make it ridiculously agile. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-14-f-15-f-16-f-18-which-one-should-i-have-in-a-dogfight/170663.md?page=3)