# F-16 strafes Jersey grade school. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 5, 2004, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139 "2004-11-05T05:08:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/21 "2004-11-05T21:16:52Z")
> [@Small Clanger](#): > > Maybe only 25 rounds hit the school, the other 185 went into the hospital next door? Where did you come up with the figure 215 (25+185) rounds? Did you mean to subtract from 515 rounds? The M61s I worked with in F-14s had a selector for burst size. IIRC it was located on the gun itself and not controllable by the pilot. I think it would go as low as 50 rounds but a current military doper should probably correct me. The M61 doesn’t fire all the rounds in the drum. Rounds that cycle through the barrels are fed back into the drum, unfired or not. During a burst there is a brief spool up and wind down where rounds are not fired. I think it’s entirely possible that only 25 rounds were fired but I’d sure be looking for more bullet holes. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/22 "2004-11-05T21:23:32Z")
They probably just landed someplace of no consequence, like the playground. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/23 "2004-11-05T21:35:25Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > Where did you come up with the figure 215 (25+185) rounds? Did you mean to subtract from 515 rounds? > > The M61s I worked with in F-14s had a selector for burst size. IIRC it was located on the gun itself and not controllable by the pilot. I think it would go as low as 50 rounds but a current military doper should probably correct me. The M61 doesn’t fire all the rounds in the drum. Rounds that cycle through the barrels are fed back into the drum, unfired or not. During a burst there is a brief spool up and wind down where rounds are not fired. I think it’s entirely possible that only 25 rounds were fired but I’d sure be looking for more bullet holes. The rounds were fired from 7000ft more than 3 miles from the range. This was not a targeting error. If he was straffing a target it would be from the 1-500 foot altitude. This is going to either be the switchology problem or a mechanical problem. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/24 "2004-11-05T21:51:43Z")
My WAG – he was firing at what he thought was an lluminated target beacon that turned out to be a jack o lantern in a classroom window. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/25 "2004-11-05T22:03:03Z")
> [@js\_africanus](#): > > Well, they knew the range was there well before anybody else built there. I’d hate to see National Guard combatants go to war with insufficient training just because some community put a school in a bad spot. Well, call me cynical, but the purpose of a military is to defend the civilians from harm, when the military itself runs the risk of injurying and/or killing civilians is time to think about priorities, as in schools first, fire ranges second. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/26 "2004-11-05T22:12:59Z")
> [@Boyo Jim](#): > > My WAG – he was firing at what he thought was an lluminated target beacon that turned out to be a jack o lantern in a classroom window. Little Ghostie: Trick or Treat!! F-16: Phdtdtdtdtdtdtdtdtdtd! Little Ghostie: Aaaaaaaaaaaaagh! ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/27 "2004-11-05T22:44:45Z")
> [@Boyo Jim](#): > > Let’s face it, those Jersey kids are substandard. Hey now! I’m the product of 13 years (K-12) public schooling in New Jersey! Oh, wait…I see your point. You’re right. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/28 "2004-11-05T23:06:44Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Well, call me cynical, but the purpose of a military is to defend the civilians from harm, when the military itself runs the risk of injurying and/or killing civilians is time to think about priorities, as in schools first, fire ranges second. Hey, _somebody’s_ gotta shoot up grade schools. If the Air Force didn’t do it, the students would. It’s getting harder and harder for **me** to distingush between schools and target ranges, and I hardly ever get more than 10 feet off the ground. Luckily for America’s outh I have no guns. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/29 "2004-11-05T23:32:18Z")
> [@Boyo Jim](#): > > Luckily for America’s outh I have no guns. Are you also running low on the letter y? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/30 "2004-11-05T23:53:06Z")
> [@Tapioca Dextrin](#): > > Are you also running low on the letter y? 😃 I said America’s outh and I **meant** America’s outh. I am no waffler. It’s a perfectly cromulent word. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/31 "2004-11-06T00:09:03Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > The rounds were fired from 7000ft more than 3 miles from the range. Ballistics question: Is the range of the Vulcan extended by altitude, or do the shells simply fall straight down at extreme range? ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/32 "2004-11-06T00:14:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Quoth the OPs [article. . .](Schools in New Jersey were closed Thursday because of a teachers convention.) \* > > Schools in New Jersey were closed Thursday because of a teachers convention. You know, I grew up in New Jersey. They never closed the school for blizzard conditions. They never closed the school for hurricanes. Hell, they didn’t even close the school _because it got strafed_. None of them. But they did close it for a teachers’ convention. :smack: Tripler I feel cheated. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/33 "2004-11-06T03:12:27Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > The rounds were fired from 7000ft more than 3 miles from the range. This was not a targeting error. If he was straffing a target it would be from the 1-500 foot altitude. This is going to either be the switchology problem or a mechanical problem. I never said anything that implied what the cause may be. As far as that goes There isn’t enough information to know what the reason was. 1-500 feet? Who strafes from one foot AGL? Even 500 feet is ridiculously low unless the approach angle is extremely shallow. I doubt it that is allowed as it makes for an extremely high risk of rounds going too far down range. No, I don’t think he “just missed” but the real reason has to be investigated. I posted about the number of rounds fired as someone else assumed there must be 185 bullet holes they did not find. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/34 "2004-11-06T03:25:15Z")
Now look. We all know that the Iraqi Insurgents (they’ve been used as a catch phrase so much they deserve capital letters now) hide out in places like mosques, hospitals, and suchlike. We can’t let our boys go into battle insufficiently trained in how to strafe a school in case there are Iraqi Insurgents hiding out in it, can we? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/35 "2004-11-06T04:40:35Z")
Next they’ll be shooting taxis. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/36 "2004-11-06T06:19:19Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Ballistics question: > Is the range of the Vulcan extended by altitude, or do the shells simply fall straight down at extreme range? More or less. Air resistance eventually will overcome vertical velocity and they will fall straight down. This could be an extremely long distance though. I don’t really want to figure out how far. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/37 "2004-11-06T13:34:22Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > I never said anything that implied what the cause may be. As far as that goes There isn’t enough information to know what the reason was. 1-500 feet? Who strafes from one foot AGL? Even 500 feet is ridiculously low unless the approach angle is extremely shallow. I doubt it that is allowed as it makes for an extremely high risk of rounds going too far down range. No, I don’t think he “just missed” but the real reason has to be investigated. > > I posted about the number of rounds fired as someone else assumed there must be 185 bullet holes they did not find. I’m sure you could figure out I meant 100 feet to 500 feet. You mentioned you worked on F-14s but did you ever see them shoot? My Navy knowledge is sketchy but I don’t believe the F-14 was ever used in a CAS role. Did F-14s ever shoot at ground targets. The F16 is a dual role interceptor/CAS aircraft. 100 feet is very low but most of the gun runs I have witnessed have been around the 500 foot AGL level. Most CAS missions I have witnessed were A-10s but I have seen a few F-16 runs. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/38 "2004-11-07T21:42:36Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Well, call me cynical, but the purpose of a military is to defend the civilians from harm, when the military itself runs the risk of injurying and/or killing civilians is time to think about priorities, as in schools first, fire ranges second. Okay, you are cynical. What does that have to do with anything? The article made it clear that the range predates any development in the area. Since the range was chosen from a large undeveloped section of land, it would presumably have been chosen for a good reason. Failure to creatively solve development pressures is not a good reason to short shrift the military. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/39 "2004-11-07T22:27:48Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Well, call me cynical, but the purpose of a military is to defend the civilians from harm, when the military itself runs the risk of injurying and/or killing civilians is time to think about priorities, as in schools first, fire ranges second. I’m thinking you are off base as well. One minor incident does raise red flags, but it does not mandate the thinking or changing of strategic theory in defending those same civilians from harm. That piece of targeted land has been operating for years without incident. Just because one major fuck-up happened doesn’t mean that _all_ East Coast training shouldn’t occur. Am I simply sweeping this under the rug? Hell no. I’m simply saying that you should have some perspective and thank God this hasn’t happened before. Tripler Incidents happen. It’s thanks to our inspectors they don’t cause more damage to military or even the civilian community. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139/40 "2004-11-08T22:40:38Z")
Airforce spokesperson: "We’ve determined the problem. It seems that when the pilot was 9, a fellow student by the name of “Nostril” Gruenwald shoved him to the ground and rubbed his face in (looks closely at paper) dog poop. Apparently the sight of the elementary school caused a flashback and he lost control. At this point we plan to press no charges and the pilot is in conditioning therapy, apparently involving repeated exposure to dog poop in a variety of situations. We hope to have him back in the air in time for the Gruenwald wedding." [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-16-strafes-jersey-grade-school/273139.md?page=1)